Update on Banning of Oregon E cigarette Sales

[SheerLuckHolmes]

What distresses me is this prevailing cultural belief that everything - EVERYTHING - boils down to an 'US vs. THEM' mentality.

When are people going to start living their lives from a 'We are all in the same boat' mentality. Even in the same boat there are individuals that have different desires and needs. But these different needs and desires can be accomodated without the stamping out and destuction of 'the other side' as we see played out over and over again from politics to religion to sports to which breakfast cereal to eat.

 

[Surf Monkey]

Never. Us vs Them includes an implicit power relationship.

 

[zero7starz]

Did anyone ever watch the movie Thank You For Smoking? In the movie, the main character is snatched and they attempted to kill him by placing a ton of nic patches on him. And yes, it did almost kill him. So don't try to say that these are regulated quantities. But then again, taking an abundance of anything can kill you- why should this be any different?

 

[Mac]

MissVapor , thanks for that, it is eye-opening. May I also make a point that people who promote e-cigs by in-your-face demonstrations should take heart, this is what can happen. People will not be impressed, they miss the whole point except for the blatant disregard of the sensibilities people have about smoking in general, vaping inside around others, kids and old folks. Save that for home, or a tolerant work place. This is a touchy situation, especially now when it seems that people's rights are disappearing before our eyes. Education and promoting a product doesn't work if it's stuffed down somebody's throat. But also we want to retain our right to have our PV's and be able to buy supplies, so we walk a fine line till all this gets sorted. We also want to be safe. Fine line heck, this is a tight-rope we walk on.

I am not going to quit my job to make some anti smoking jerk more comfortable in their misconception or because it doesn't satisfy the public image viewed by a corrupt government. If use in public was really the problem they would have already passed federal vaping bans in public places. The problem is one of greed and control. To that there is no solution.

 

[waveho]

I think the basic undeniable premise is simple: Former and current smokers get the e-cig concept fully; non-smokers do not and will never get it. Ironically, all we can hope for is that there are many current and former smokers in high government positions on many levels.... As a former "bureaucrat," I can attest that there ARE.... for what it's worth.

 

[PlanetScribbles]

The state Attorney General (AG) got involved and gave the companies 72 hrs to prove their claim 'safer'.

This is what annoys me about the state. That is utter bull.
That is like me stating as fact that Dr Pepper is safer to drink than neat vodka and being asked to prove it! Ummm ... STATING THE OBVIOUS?!?!
I sometimes wonder what qualifies these people to run our lives, as it certainly isn't common sense. You would get more sense, even latitude, from a cactus!

I needed to get that off my chest.

 

[Duckies]

Technically, one could also pull the wool out of 40 cartridges and swallow them too....

The difference is a measured dose with a finite amount. When you start seeing people getting a brick of Vicodin for pain and they get to take an icepick and chop off chunks (doses) at their discretion, lemme know....and it's not even a liquid. Liquids are more easily absorbed into the skin than pills.

This is about the best analogy I have seen.

It is all about controlled dosages. Yes, someone could take twice the dose, or the whole bottle even of a given prescription, but the point is that it is dispensed in approved amounts.

If the FDA *ever* stamps their seal of approval on these, you can bet your bottom dollar that they will ONLY allow prefilled carts to be sold via prescription. I would be surprised if you could even get a month long prescription for more than 30 carts thanks to the vendors touting that they are the equivalent of an entire pack of cigs.

 

[Territoo]

Duckies,
FINALLY a consumer who actually has some foresight.... I've been saying this for ages... hence why Liberty Stix doesn't sell anything but pre-filled carts....and why the FDA is moving us along with our navigating to comply with their protocols.... SORRY FOLKS...

If you want your e-cigs you are gonna have to understand that concessions to unlimited nicotine solutions is not viable.

In theory your argument is valid, but pratically, I haven't found the cartridge to be a satisfing delivery method. No matter who I bought them from or what mod I made to them, they always produce vapor for a very short time before they have to be changed or topped off.

I find no difference in the frequency I have to top off a cartridge or reload by dripping. Thus, if I only use prefilled cartridges, I'd be going through a lot of them per day and wasting a lot of the residual liquid in the cartridge. Not very financially feasable, and difficult to quantitate how much nic used in a day, since we do not know how much volume is in each cartridge (it can vary by size and by distributor) and what percentage of the liquid was consumed.

A person using only liquid can monitor his daily usage very easily. Say yesterday, I vaped 3ml of 24mg nic juice. My day's consumtion of nicotine was 72mg. Today I switched to 18mg and vaped 3.5ml of juice. Today, I took in 63mg of nicotine.

If cartridges were better designed such that only 20% of juice remained and the volume was always pretty close to the same (say 0.5ml for XYZ size), then I could say that yesterday I vaped 10 carts of 18mg, thus using (10x0.5x18mg= 90mg minus 18mg (20% of 90) 72mg. Today, I vaped 14 carts of 11mg using 61.6mg total for the day. (14x0.5x11mg=77-15.4= 61.6)

Bottom line, the problem w/ carts is the poor delivery method and inconsistency among the product. Fix that and you got yurself a valid argument.

 

[ElectricNicotine]

The following quote was an emailed reply by David Hart, Senior Assistant Attorney General Financial Fraud/Consumer Protection in Oregon
and is taken with permission from the very end of this blog post about Oregon's supposed ecig banning -

electricnicotine.com/government/oregon-did-not-ban-ecigs




"DOJ has not banned electronic cigarettes. We are taking action against e-cig vendors who misrepresent the safety of these products. The UTPA prohibits deceptive promotion of any product, including electronic cigarettes.

Two of the products that DOJ investigated are e-cigarettes sold by Smoking Everywhere and NJOY. The national distributors for both products were served with official Notice that the Attorney General believes their promotion of e-cigs violates the UTPA and they were offered an opportunity to avoid litigation by agreeing not sell e-cigs in Oregon until it is determined whether these products must be approved by FDA.

If electronic cigarettes do not need to be approved by FDA, the companies would be able to resuming selling e-cigs in Oregon so long as they possess evidence to support their promotional claims.

Two vendors of electronic cigarettes - TA Travel Centers and Pilot Travel Centers - already signed such agreements. Both NJOY and SMOKING EVERYWHERE have voluntarily agreed to stop doing business in Oregon while we try to negotiate a settlement.

Although DOJ is looking at a number of e-cig products, thus far, we are only taking action against NJOY and Smoking Everywhere."

 

[Territoo]

My previous post got me thinking...how much nicotine exposure in vaping compared to smoking.

I pulled this quote off of Wiki:

"American cigarettes contain about 9 mg of nicotine, but because much of the nicotine is burned off, a smoker gets about 1 mg of nicotine in every cigarette."

So a pack per day smoker (20 analogs) goes through 180mg of nicotine a day, but adsorbs 18mg a day.

Does anyone know how much of the nicotine that is vaped is adsorbed?

If I were to assume that 1/9 of vaped nicotine is adsorbed, just like in smoking, the my 3ml of 24mg/day vaper would adsorb 16mg of nicotine.

"In tobacco smoke, nicotine "rides" on small particles of tar."

Would the lack of tar in vapor increase or decrease the amount adsorbed?

I guess one way to determine this is compare blood levels of nicotine after vaping or smoking equivalent amounts of nicotine. Get a hundred people to smoke a 9mg analog and an hundred to vape 1/2ml of 18mg nic juice. I volunteer to be in the vaping group.

 

[Territoo]

Oops....looks like I'm getting off topic a bit. Sorry.

 

[Duckies]

I find no difference in the frequency I have to top off a cartridge or reload by dripping. Thus, if I only use prefilled cartridges, I'd be going through a lot of them per day and wasting a lot of the residual liquid in the cartridge.

<snip>

Bottom line, the problem w/ carts is the poor delivery method and inconsistency among the product. Fix that and you got yurself a valid argument.

This is the major issue. If we had to rely on carts only, these things would be able as viable as the inhalers.

I tried a filled cart back in March when I started. Didn't like the flavor and it didn't let me use all of the niquid before it quit producing vapor. Rinsed it off and have been using liquid ever since. I probably have about 20 filled carts from various kits I have bought, still sealed in their little baggies. I keep them as tips for people who want to try out my PV.

 

[Sebastian]

Duckies,
Thanks for the analogy approval a couple posts ago. I think you know where I am coming from....and it all comes down to what is going to be allowed.

Teritoo,
I want to let you know that the "delivery" and amount of residual wasted liquid is akin to an analog cig that you don't smoke until it burns down to the filter. There may be residual waste, but it's marginal. However, I am looking into different cart stuffing materials that can enhance the experience and performance of the cart from start to finish.

My company isn't as interested in the financial feasibility, as we are in delivering a quality product that we are trying to navigate through the protocols of the FDA. I think you know where I am coming from on this.

I actually tout my product as being the most expensive cart on the market. It pretty much is. It's also, in my opinion, the safest bet out there. (based on the origin of our ingredients, the fact they are pharmaceutical grade, and that they are insured).

When people call our call center and want to know why we don't sell juice, I can give them a 20 minute dissertation on it. Most want to use it to save money. My response to them is that LS is not the right e-cig for you if your main goal is to save money. My aforementioned reasoning is why.

If you want a fully loaded Cadillac, you have to pay for a fully loaded Cadillac. If you want a Ford Escort, you pay for a Ford Escort (probably a tan one with manual locks and windows). But not everyone can afford Cadillacs, and not everyone wants one if they could afford one.

In fact I turn those people away from my product, because in the end, they are gonna pursue their goals of trying to save a buck and resort to dripping again. So right NOW, my cart might not work for everyone, but the people who understand what LS is trying to accomplish buy it because they at least understand where we are coming from and our end goal.

 

[Duckies]

Hi Sebastian,

Yes, you and I are definitely on the same page.

Where we differ is on the efficacy of prefilled carts. While I agree that this is the ONLY hope of FDA approval, I also know vaping with liquids and there is simply no comparison between the two.

That said, if they approve these, carts are the only hope. MANY people will benefit from this, but those of us who have DIY for so long still know the difference.

I have enough juice to last to get to 0-nic (anticipating 2 years, worst case), so am not worried personally and wish you the best. Know that if you are approved, I will do anything and everything in my power to support & promote your business.

 

[Territoo]

Duckies,
Thanks for the analogy approval a couple posts ago. I think you know where I am coming from....and it all comes down to what is going to be allowed.

Teritoo,
I want to let you know that the "delivery" and amount of residual wasted liquid is akin to an analog cig that you don't smoke until it burns down to the filter. There may be residual waste, but it's marginal. However, I am looking into different cart stuffing materials that can enhance the experience and performance of the cart from start to finish.

My company isn't as interested in the financial feasibility, as we are in delivering a quality product that we are trying to navigate through the protocols of the FDA. I think you know where I am coming from on this.

I actually tout my product as being the most expensive cart on the market. It pretty much is. It's also, in my opinion, the safest bet out there. (based on the origin of our ingredients, the fact they are pharmaceutical grade, and that they are insured).

When people call our call center and want to know why we don't sell juice, I can give them a 20 minute dissertation on it. Most want to use it to save money. My response to them is that LS is not the right e-cig for you if your main goal is to save money. My aforementioned reasoning is why.

If you want a fully loaded Cadillac, you have to pay for a fully loaded Cadillac. If you want a Ford Escort, you pay for a Ford Escort (probably a tan one with manual locks and windows). But not everyone can afford Cadillacs, and not everyone wants one if they could afford one.

In fact I turn those people away from my product, because in the end, they are gonna pursue their goals of trying to save a buck and resort to dripping again. So right NOW, my cart might not work for everyone, but the people who understand what LS is trying to accomplish buy it because they at least understand where we are coming from and our end goal.

Sebastian,

I understand what you are say and I believe you and Duckies are right. If the FDA allows the ecig, it will probably be w/ cart use only. Thus it becomes imperative to improve the design so that the delivery at least approaches what some of the more unscrupulous vendors, ie Smoking Everywhere, claim. As it stands, if they believe that one cart will last the equivalent of 30 analogs, there will be a limit of perhaps 30 carts a month. That would last me about 2 days because of all the wasted liquid.

I'm glad to see that you are working on improvements in the design and I hope others are too. If you can get a design that does deliver, then I'll gladly forego the messy liquids.

As for the cost, saving money isn't my goal personally, but it could make a difference to some. If it costs a lot more (not counting the upfront cost of equipment purchase) to vape than to smoke, many people who would otherwise benefit from ecigs would continue to purchase analogs. The carts currently on the market are Ford Escorts being sold at a Cadillac prices.

 

[Mr_Slippery]

Anyone could OD on carts or by dripping/refilling.
But It would cost me more to do it by using only carts.

In the end it is about personal responsibility, which we seem to have forgotten about, and in many aspects of life, not just vaping.

If I OD on something that I chose to purchase - My fault.
If a kid OD's on something - the responsibility lies with the parent/vendor/whomever provided the substance.

But in this day and age, we have to all suffer because of what irresponsible people 'might' do.

 

[Sebastian]

Territoo,
I understand your frustration with carts and their prices. However, if you search some of the threads I have posted in, you will see that not all carts are created equal. Our carts are some of the most expensive on the market, I have not denied this whatsoever. In fact, I want people to know that we have the most expensive cart on the market. There's a reason, well a few: 1)American Liquid 2)Pharmaceutical Grade 3)Extensive Product Liability Insurance 4)No DEG.... I'd put a few others, but I'm not in the mood to deal with people and the same old discrediting.

At any rate, our mark up is the same percentage as mom and pop suppliers and I can assure you they have a miniscule fraction of the overhead you have to incur if you are doing this thing legitimately. I would say that the cart prices may drop over time and increase in performance too (just look at that new GM Volt, 230mpg, but $40,000 - soon those cars will get 400mpg and cost $20,000...it's the nature of the beast).

SO some will attempt to purchase the GM Volt, but it won't be the masses looking to save on the gas money, but people who have other intentions (visit the pump not as frequently to save time, be environmentally sound etc). Same goes for LS carts...