Vape term: "Safe Pass-Thru" mean?

Status
Not open for further replies.

crxess

Grumpy Ole Man
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 20, 2012
24,438
46,126
72
Williamsport Md
Sorry, but that is a collection of posted data and may not be accurate, though I like the overall data compiled.

Passthru is running a device off an (A)EXTERNAL power supply - Or - (B)Using the Internal Battery for supply during a charging cycle.

A) Assumes circuitry heavy enough to properly handle current demand.
B) Assumes enough Battery reserve to provide current during recharge.

Though a USB connector may be useable on any type of board that supplies power, Standard USB charge boards are not designed to pass high current through the circuits. It is the Amperage, not the Voltage that is the problem.

A passthru EGO draws very low amperage
A Passthru designed Device usually requires a 2.1-2.5a Wall adapter for sufficient power to operate at 4.8v running coils over 1.0ohm(maybe higher)
Sub Ohm loads with a .5 coil @ 30w pulls 7a

I feel we are stepping into a currently GREY area.
 

Rickajho

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 23, 2011
11,841
21,763
Boston MA
This is one where you have to ask them in that thread what they are talking about. I'm lost at the point where they insist on calling electronic APV's "mods" - a term which is commonly applied to either a mechanical or a homebrew device. So if their basic premise is misleading then what they consider a "safe passthrough" - no idea.
 

Katdarling

I'm still here on ECF... sort of. ;)
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 25, 2011
32,587
167,858
Utopia
What does vape term: "Safe Pass-Thru" mean?
Re: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-z_V674p-5HYa9uzMqj1mq67da8-hnOOh2NNB2-ifgI/edit#gid=0
Column I .
Little itty bitty mods under $100.--Thread in ECF

This is one where you have to ask them in that thread what they are talking about. I'm lost at the point where they insist on calling electronic APV's "mods" - a term which is commonly applied to either a mechanical or a homebrew device. So if their basic premise is misleading then what they consider a "safe passthrough" - no idea.

All I would like a passthrough to do, is to charge between vapes. I wonder why someone would go to all the trouble to tabulate and not define a column? Safe for me would mean no chance of frying the printed circuit board or other calamity via usb. I,m with Rickajho on this one.
Thanks crxess, very helpful.

By "them", you might mean me. And if so, I will get back to you. Right now, I'm just getting home from a nite of St. Paddy's, so my replies might just be a tad skewed.

To be continued. :)
 

duc916

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 10, 2012
806
729
Nor Cal
I'm unclear on this too...? Do some mods actually try to pull current from the charging port directly to your coils when the battery is weak? Maybe USB ports should be labeled "DO NOT SUBOHM" :laugh:

There shouldn't be any danger to your USB host device (laptop, USB battery, etc.)
With the USB spec, in a laptop for example, they are protected with polyfuses, or multifuses, which reset themselves when the problem is corrected. e.g. If you exceed something like 5A for a split second, there is a thermal device that opens the circuit to protect your laptop's 5V supply from whatever craptastic box mod is hooked up to it.

I've never had the need or urge to try this. I guess I don't need this particular UL standard to protect me and my gadgets when common sense works so well.
 
Last edited:

DPLongo22

"Vert De Ferk"
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 17, 2011
32,986
183,056
Midworld
Having been directly involved with the creation of Kat's sheet, and not being in a recovering state, I feel uniquely qualified to respond to at least some of the issues presented here. In fact, both the "APV" and "Safe Pass-Through" terms (along with some others) were discussed specifically during the creation, knowing full well that someone would raise questions.

So while Kat sleeps off her Duggan's, allow me...

Regarding "Safe Pass-Through", we discussed using "Recommended Pass-Through" instead, but decided that it wouldn't avoid controversy either, and would only make the column wider (with little or no value added). The reality is that this is a very personal definition, and people should really do enough homework to know whether or not it's for them.

For me? NOTHING fits the definition. I simply won't do it, outside of one very unique mod that (a) almost nobody has, and (b) I know for a fact was designed to handle it. It does not use USB, but a proprietary connection instead.

But for the purposes of the sheet -
- If the technical specs included warning/advice against doing so, it's a "No." For example, anyone who's ever purchased a Mamu mod, with a lipo battery, knows that she was VERY CLEAR about NOT using it as a pass-through.
- Contrasting the above statement, if specs identified it as a "Pass-Through" device, it's a "Yes".
- Obviously, rows left blank were/are undefined*.

* With no guarantee that something hasn't changed, and subsequently been missed, since its entry to the sheet.

Certain assumptions had to be made, with the knowledge conflicting information existed (and would probably be presented at some point). Given that many vapers appear to look for such opportunities (peruse threads if in doubt), this was almost unavoidable.

crxess & Richajho, you've both been around long enough to know that conflicting definitions exists for many components of our vaping world. In fact, there are many who would argue with crxess' definition of Passthru, eliminating "B" and retaining simply "A". The fact is that we're still somewhat in the Wild West, defining many aspects of what will (hopefully) become understood as time passes.

Regarding "APV", yep - that's a sure fire argument, almost without fail. Advanced Personal Vaporizer. Nebulous much? Who's to say....

But it is a commonly used term, and almost all of these devices can be found in said category when shopping through a large percentage of vendor sites. Anyone intent on arguing the use will find valid reasons to do so, and all I can do is sigh. We all know what the intention is, don't we?

BrotherBob's question was a good one, and should be asked. Kat knows my feeling on the subject, and happens to be in agreement. Anyone deciding to bring a device to their mouth, that is connected to an electrical circuit, probably should do a bit of homework before doing so. Just because it says you can on a silly little spreadsheet doesn't mean that you should (see "technical-reference" video at end-of-message).

The sheet was designed to consolidate information, some of it anecdotal, related to the fastest-growing trend I've experienced since beginning this vaping thing. I felt it was unmanageable then, and I continue to think so. Stuff's coming out WAY to fast to keep up with, but I give Kat credit for doing her best.

If it was me, I'd have opened the dayum thing up for editing, a long time ago, and said, "Have fun y'all! I am outta here."

I hope this brought at least some value to the conversation.

And I leave you with the aforementioned "technical reference" video. Is it safe to use as a pass-through? Heck if I know. I'm just a French model.

 

duc916

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 10, 2012
806
729
Nor Cal
I'm still not clear on what is in "danger" of happening? Damage to the USB host device, or the mod itself?

Here's some actual data that regular folk can understand. In the name of science I put my USB battery up on the sacrificial altar (yeah not really) and it survived unscathed.

On the left, my iStick 50W is at 1/4 charge, sitting idle and happily charging at 1.01A.
On the right, it's firing 45W into an Orchid dual coil build at 0.33 ohm, and the current draw went up 0.01A (essentially no change).

Nothing unexpected happened. I think I could feel safe leaving it plugged into my laptop while vaping (but I still have no need for this). I guess I could call it a "passthrough" device, right?

attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • istick50w_charger.jpg
    istick50w_charger.jpg
    22.4 KB · Views: 141
Last edited:

DPLongo22

"Vert De Ferk"
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 17, 2011
32,986
183,056
Midworld
I'm still not clear on what is in "danger" of happening? Damage to the USB host device, or the mod itself?

Here's some actual data that regular folk can understand. In the name of science I put my USB battery up on the sacrificial altar (yeah not really) and it survived unscathed.

On the left, my iStick 50W is at 1/4 charge, sitting idle and happily charging at 1.01A.
On the right, it's firing 45W into an Orchid dual coil build at 0.33 ohm, and the current draw went up 0.01A (essentially no change).

Nothing unexpected happened. I think I could feel safe leaving it plugged into my laptop while vaping (but I still have no need for this). I guess I could call it a "passthrough" device, right?

attachment.php

Thanks, Duc. That is good information.

And I still choose not to do it. I also don't charge via my computers, instead electing for outlets or power strips. I'm not saying that I'm correct, only that it's my choice of how I approach it. As should be the case for everyone (how each approaches it), in my opinion.

Again though, excellent information, and appreciated. The more (info) the better...
 

duc916

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 10, 2012
806
729
Nor Cal
Thanks, Duc. That is good information.

And I still choose not to do it. I also don't charge via my computers, instead electing for outlets or power strips. I'm not saying that I'm correct, only that it's my choice of how I approach it. As should be the case for everyone (how each approaches it), in my opinion.

Again though, excellent information, and appreciated. The more (info) the better...

Agreed... I'll always opt for a dedicated charger.

Anyway, I don't know if the absence of any current spikes while vaping is the only criteria, but if anyone is curious what my USB volt/amp meter is, here's a link to the one I have:

BESTOPE Digital led USB Amperemeter Voltmeter
 

crxess

Grumpy Ole Man
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 20, 2012
24,438
46,126
72
Williamsport Md
DPLongo22

Well written response. My intent was not to dismiss the work but rather to warn of unknowns. As you specified the Data is collected, not proven and therefor fallible.

eVic was definitely (B) and even warned not to attempt Passthru on a Low battery(power down state)
Duc916 test seems to also indicate a type(B) function when considering a .01 increase in amp draw on a .33 load.
Dual 18650's with 1/4 charge and splitting the work would have enough power to deliver on demand safely.
(1/4 remaining recommended voltage)

As we know there is a difference between a USB appliance(governed) and a USB type attachment.
Micro USB Female connectors are readily available for repair work and could be soldered to any board in any configuration that would work for the user. +/- input, or remote switch for examples.

I was simply stating known variables in design and unknown limits in design.
I still appreciate the work that has gone into the database.

Perhaps - Avl. Passthru - this is what the manufacturers use rather than simply stating Passthru.
What exactly does Available entail?
 
Last edited:

DPLongo22

"Vert De Ferk"
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 17, 2011
32,986
183,056
Midworld
DPLongo22

Well written response. My intent was not to dismiss the work but rather to warn of unknowns. As you specified the Data is collected, not proven and therefor fallible.

eVic was definitely (B) and even warned not to attempt Passthru on a Low battery(power down state)
Duc916 test seems to also indicate a type(B) function when considering a .01 increase in amp draw on a .33 load.
Dual 18650's with 1/4 charge and splitting the work would have enough power to deliver on demand safely.
(1/4 remaining recommended voltage)

As we know there is a difference between a USB appliance(governed) and a USB type attachment.
Micro USB Female connectors are readily available for repair work and could be soldered to any board in any configuration that would work for the user. +/- input, or remote switch for examples.

I was simply stating known variables in design and unknown limits in design.
I still appreciate the work that has gone into the database.

Perhaps - Avl. Passthru - this is what the manufacturers use rather than simply stating Passthru.
What exactly does Available entail?

Thank you, crxess -as was yours. And your intentions were excellent too. Let's hope some actually pay attention to the valid concerns.

As for, "Available", I'm kind of stuck on the now infamous line,"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is".

Vape wisely, vape happily, and vape as if your life depends on it.
(Because it may...)

:vapor:
 

Katdarling

I'm still here on ECF... sort of. ;)
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 25, 2011
32,587
167,858
Utopia
What does vape term: "Safe Pass-Thru" mean?
Re: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-z_V674p-5HYa9uzMqj1mq67da8-hnOOh2NNB2-ifgI/edit#gid=0
Column I .
Little itty bitty mods under $100.--Thread in ECF

BrotherBob (and everyone), hi.

As DPL so eloquently stated, we struggled long and hard on the naming conventions of several columns on that little spreadsheet. Just to give you some background, it started as a response to the many "little" devices that started appearing after the onset and enormous popularity of the iStick. I volunteered myself to create a list of the little mods as they appeared. My work was, for the most part, derived from other ECF members as they discovered more and more of the newer devices.

The spreadsheet came a bit later, after a simple list was found to be insufficient. It then took on a life of its own. In fact, in the very beginning, it took a LONG time to figure out what we all meant by "little" or "itty bitty". As a group, we more or less decided and chose the dimensions that you now can see on that sheet. It was certainly a collaborative effort, and I played dutiful secretary.

The "Safe Pass-Thru" column........... you all have given me (and DPL, who is my spreadsheet mentor/partner) pause, and we have discussed it some. As he already posted, it was a controversial column at best, and we chose to use vendor and manufacturer specs in designating the devices as "yes-safe" or "no-not safe". At this point in time, and thanks to the posts in this thread, I've (we) changed the spreadsheet to indicate that there either IS pass-thru vaping available on the device in question, or there is not.

We've also added a disclaimer about the information, and a gentle nudge that people need to do their own research. None of us made any claims to scientific or hard facts. Those would well be derived by some of our more knowledgeable members here, such as crxess. I personally, plead the doofus.

I'm also in the school of thought that does not accept the use of a pass-thru on any USB device. It's an intuited knowing more than anything else that tells me that's a no-no, for me.

What DPL posted is worth repeating and putting in bold type:

"Anyone deciding to bring a device to their mouth, that is connected to an electrical circuit, probably should do a bit of homework before doing so. Just because it says you can on a silly little spreadsheet doesn't mean that you should."



I am in some ways very glad that you brought this up, and gave us all a chance to shine some light on it. Perhaps with all of our input, we can begin to clarify this issue for all vapers.
 

Katdarling

I'm still here on ECF... sort of. ;)
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 25, 2011
32,587
167,858
Utopia
Sorry, but that is a collection of posted data and may not be accurate, though I like the overall data compiled.

Passthru is running a device off an (A)EXTERNAL power supply - Or - (B)Using the Internal Battery for supply during a charging cycle.

A) Assumes circuitry heavy enough to properly handle current demand.
B) Assumes enough Battery reserve to provide current during recharge.

Though a USB connector may be useable on any type of board that supplies power, Standard USB charge boards are not designed to pass high current through the circuits. It is the Amperage, not the Voltage that is the problem.

A passthru EGO draws very low amperage
A Passthru designed Device usually requires a 2.1-2.5a Wall adapter for sufficient power to operate at 4.8v running coils over 1.0ohm(maybe higher)
Sub Ohm loads with a .5 coil @ 30w pulls 7a

I feel we are stepping into a currently GREY area.

Abstolutely, crxess. The collection of data may or may NOT be accurate. It remains a simple compilation from ECF members and vendor websites. I'm honored that you like it overall.

Several years ago, there were actual pass-thru devices available. I didn't fully understand them then, and for the most part have moved on from using them now, but they HAD NO BATTERY. They were truly a PASS THROUGH appliance that allowed the current to flow from its source to the atomizer. Using a powered USB port, you no longer had to even think about ecig battery dying, or waiting for a recharge. We would plug it into the powered USB port (the car, or a computer port) and connect it to an atty/kartomizer for non-stop vaping. The USB pass-thru did not contain a battery at all.



This may (or is definitely) a grey area, but I have a suspicion that you might be able to help turn it black and white. :)

I appreciate your input greatly. I'm not too proud to learn, or beg. ;)




This is one where you have to ask them in that thread what they are talking about. I'm lost at the point where they insist on calling electronic APV's "mods" - a term which is commonly applied to either a mechanical or a homebrew device. So if their basic premise is misleading then what they consider a "safe passthrough" - no idea.


I'm not quite sure who you'd ask, Rick. Please tho, feel free to join in the discussion. I know you'd be an asset.

As far as the terminology goes, once again, I do believe that DPLongo pretty much covered that area. For my lifespan in vaping, the term "mods" has been used fairly interchangeably with "devices". I'm very sorry if you felt anything was misleading, and would be happy to hear more so that we might use language that is better suited to a common understanding.

By the way........ the "they" is just a collection of ECF'ers. Just like us.


All I would like a passthrough to do, is to charge between vapes. I wonder why someone would go to all the trouble to tabulate and not define a column? Safe for me would mean no chance of frying the printed circuit board or other calamity via usb. I,m with Rickajho on this one.
Thanks crxess, very helpful.


I wonder why I went thru the trouble, too. ;)

I did my best based on what I had at hand, BBob, with the help of many other vapers. I went thru the trouble in order to help people decipher and navigate the crowded waters of a sea of new devices. I do hope I achieved at least some of that goal.
 
Last edited:

Katdarling

I'm still here on ECF... sort of. ;)
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 25, 2011
32,587
167,858
Utopia
I'm still not clear on what is in "danger" of happening? Damage to the USB host device, or the mod itself?

Here's some actual data that regular folk can understand. In the name of science I put my USB battery up on the sacrificial altar (yeah not really) and it survived unscathed.

On the left, my iStick 50W is at 1/4 charge, sitting idle and happily charging at 1.01A.
On the right, it's firing 45W into an Orchid dual coil build at 0.33 ohm, and the current draw went up 0.01A (essentially no change).

Nothing unexpected happened. I think I could feel safe leaving it plugged into my laptop while vaping (but I still have no need for this). I guess I could call it a "passthrough" device, right?

attachment.php

Very good info, duc, and I thank you as well.

And you, too, Kent C.
 

Katdarling

I'm still here on ECF... sort of. ;)
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 25, 2011
32,587
167,858
Utopia
DPLongo22

Well written response. My intent was not to dismiss the work but rather to warn of unknowns. As you specified the Data is collected, not proven and therefor fallible.

eVic was definitely (B) and even warned not to attempt Passthru on a Low battery(power down state)
Duc916 test seems to also indicate a type(B) function when considering a .01 increase in amp draw on a .33 load.
Dual 18650's with 1/4 charge and splitting the work would have enough power to deliver on demand safely.
(1/4 remaining recommended voltage)

As we know there is a difference between a USB appliance(governed) and a USB type attachment.
Micro USB Female connectors are readily available for repair work and could be soldered to any board in any configuration that would work for the user. +/- input, or remote switch for examples.

I was simply stating known variables in design and unknown limits in design.
I still appreciate the work that has gone into the database.

Perhaps - Avl. Passthru - this is what the manufacturers use rather than simply stating Passthru.
What exactly does Available entail?


Thank you. :blush: That means a great deal to me, in spite of the fact that the colleced data is fallible. Please, if time permits, come and shed some light on the actual thread. Those of us there, are...... hmmmmm...... "available". ;)
 

Katdarling

I'm still here on ECF... sort of. ;)
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 25, 2011
32,587
167,858
Utopia
And finally (WHEW!)...... DPL......


Thank you for your wisdom, and your ability to communicate what I could not, in spite of the fact that life gives you little time to post at all.






An just by the way...... I'm looking to date a French model, in case you know of one. ;)
 

crxess

Grumpy Ole Man
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 20, 2012
24,438
46,126
72
Williamsport Md
Katdarling - Thank you and I do appreciate all the work you and others do here. I apologize if my postings come off short or abrupt at times. I'm a fairly quite old middle class man with less than adequate communication skills and a worse typing technique.
I Generally prefer assisting in equipment problem solving, however we all have our windmills to tilt from time to time.:laugh:

I to remember the early passthru products and still have (2) good working ego 900mah passthru batteries. I just never use the feature. I have seen more recent True Passthru units which even have variable voltage(to 4.8v) These now come with a warning to use with a wall adapter only.

My main concern is manufacturers(mostly China based) have poor interpretation skills. The use of Passthru Available is rather open to translation.

In understanding the fragile design of the USB ports(prior to UBS3) and the Capabilities of the recent Regulated mods to deliver High power at the cost of increased Amperage, I see Passthru Available as just that - available, not guaranteed.
(My Translation attempt)
A device may be used to Vape while charging so long as the installed/internal battery has enough reserve power to supply current demand. (Battery handles load)

At this point in Vaping I do not believe I personally have seen any Regulated mod which could support Vaping at 30w+ if the battery was totally depleted. Not saying there is not one, but I suspect if the Battery was removed/Dead and the Mod still fired on USB a failure would happen in short order.
* These mods will likely casual Vape without issues in the 7-9w range with higher resistance coils without issue while charging.

My apologies for getting long winded.

Be Safe!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread