Vaping Community Fights Back

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Hydroscopic

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Jman8

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I like the article. It flows well, addresses most of the significant concerns and counters the politically incorrect take on why people vape and what industry is up to.

What I don't like is the lengths the article is compelled to go to, to ensure its reader that eCigs are not being marketed nor intentionally sold (by this organization) to minors. As this is the biggest political issue, I very much understand the need to go there and emphasize this point. Yet, it keeps that aspect of the dialogue, the one adults think they have a handle on, with a conundrum that amounts to adults saying one thing, doing another, and lying to make themselves feel better.

If adults are forbidden from vaping, this article implies that they would smoke. And this would be an unwise decision for society. The article states that 'vapor products save lives.' And majority of current vapers (I would say overwhelming majority) are former smokers who likely started when they were minors, and when it was not legal to buy smokes as a minor. Thus, minors are going to smoke or vape, and adults absolutely need to understand this, or play the plausible denial game to feel good about themselves. But if vapor products do in fact save lives, then it is really no different than suggesting a minor use a condom. The differences there would be based on superficialities, not principles.

The more realistic discussion to have is what it actually means to market to children, as compared to making products that will likely appeal to children. I can't think of a product that appeals to many adults, that kids don't find appealing. I actually don't think it possible to make a product strictly for adults that doesn't appeal to at least some minors. I would intellectually enjoy finding exceptions to this, but currently can't think of any. Marketing to kids would seem to apply to venues / media that are predominantly viewed or embraced by minors, coupled with advertising that would show kids using / enjoying the product. I highly doubt vaping has ever been presented in this light, or in this fashion. If it is media or venue that kids may be present, but the advertising is showing adults using / enjoying, then that can't be considered 'marketing to kids.' Though, it would be fair to say the appeal factor for kids will go up. Yet, when I was a minor, it wasn't marketing that lead me to smoking, even while I was a minor during a time when ANTZ was seemingly exercising great control or influence over BT marketing efforts. Furthermore, the first point of 'vapor saves lives' or influences an alternative choice to smoking tobacco, really does outweigh all concerns of plausible marketing to adults where minors may be present. To the degree it does not, and the notion that all vaping marketing must be forbidden in any venue / media where a child may be present, is both ignorant of reality of minors (realizing they will then choose smoking instead) and damaging to the credibility, or even righteous authority, of elders. It makes minors realize, at some point, that they are being lied to, and used as pawns in a game among childish adults.
 

nicnik

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Some quotes from your post:
..........
"But if vapor products do in fact save lives, then it is really no different than suggesting a minor use a condom. The differences there would be based on superficialities, not principles."
..........
Yes, Harm Reduction. Maybe some day there will be government approved or sponsored Tobacco Harm Reduction programs similar to other Harm Reduction efforts. I've never heard any ANTZ explanation for treating THR so differently from other HR.
..........
"I can't think of a product that appeals to many adults, that kids don't find appealing. I actually don't think it possible to make a product strictly for adults that doesn't appeal to at least some minors. I would intellectually enjoy finding exceptions to this, but currently can't think of any."
..........
I just spent a few minutes trying to think of some exceptions. I can't think of any. It's really important to realize this, especially considering that it's people going through the transition to adulthood that the concerns are focused on in regards to taking up vaping.

I've seen nothing that even comes close to marketing to kids. I'm not sure where you stand on this, but maybe you'd agree that if it were actual marketing to kids, it would be good to not allow it unless it was to inform about the THR help vaping could be. Educational, rather than glamorizing.
 
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sofarsogood

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Oct 12, 2014
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Most of us started smoking as kids so we should know a little about that. I think most kids who try vaping who never smoked will grow out of it, lose interest. Now I have experienced nicotine without the other tobacco chemicals and my experience seems to confirm the science about nic, that it's not so addictive after all. I think my system uses nic to signal when I've had enough. I don't think I crave nic per say. I do crave the activity of smoking/vaping (I'm not smoking any more). I'm thinking about raising my nic percentage so I vape less. It's going to take a couple years to find out how many never smoking kids who try vaping become daily users and how many of those eventually lose interest. I think vaping will short circuit smoking for kids and then they'll walk away from both, curiosity satisfied.
 

Caro123

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Apr 11, 2015
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Smoking is and was a form of self medication held on to in an attempt to alleviate stress and minor depression. ( I doubt any of us knew this but biologically I believe it was probably true) Puberty is extraordinarily stressful and while I understand the politics behind shouting from the roof tops -"we don't market to minors "etc, -we are not protecting the kids at all in fact quite frankly I suspect by providing controlled dose of nicotine we would probably benefit them to a small degree.
Of course smoking was not the ideal way to deal with minor stressors/depression but it was cheap, accessible and in earlier days a non moral judgement issue.
 

Jman8

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I've seen nothing that even comes close to marketing to kids. I'm not sure where you stand on this, but maybe you'd agree that if it were actual marketing to kids, it would be good to not allow it unless it was to inform about the THR help vaping could be. Educational, rather than glamorizing.

If it was actual marketing to kids by adults, I think kids would find it corny and probably laced with lies. Adults aren't very good with being honest with each other, so forgetting what it was like to be a kid, and then telling only part of the story that is designed to get their parents to buy something for them, would a) undoubtedly be scrutinized by most parents and b) likely seen by most kids as 'so 5 minutes ago.' In the world we live in, it seems so entirely unlikely, I have trouble thinking of how exactly it would play out if it weren't scrutinized.

When I got into vaping, it was like how I got into smoking, via word of mouth. So, what's that called, 'passive marketing' or something. It still strikes me as one of the better forms of marketing, cause in both instances (my initiation experiences) weren't heavy handed. No one was really trying to sell me something. I don't recall feeling pressure at all. And with vaping, I don't recall seeing any media marketing that planted a seed first. Anyway, I write all this cause I think kids are going to continue to market to kids in way that makes most sense for them, but with some realization that adults (most of them) likely disapprove of them trying / using, and adults likely making a big todo of them using, which I think actually fuels the urge to continue on. Would take a consistent approach from majority of adults to be very honest with presenting pros and cons, and not be emphasizing cons while downplaying pros for it to go the other way. Under this scenario, I don't see parents stopping parenting (stop caring, stop nurturing), and if anything there would likely be more care given. I dunno. Fun to think about, especially considering how utterly hopeless it appears now, and how consistently messed up adults have it, while thinking they (or we) are the ones who have a handle on things.
 
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