Vaping dead people!!!

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blueGrassTubb

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Excellent perspective! Thanks for posting this link!

Share the link wherever you want!

I wrote it. I hate to be a blogwhore (the blog isn't mine, but I'm a contributing author) but this kind of context is extremely important for people to have, especially when many of us might have friends/family approaching us with their "concerns."
 

DaveP

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Good article.

The problem with the original ANTZ article is that it's not the voltage but the wattage developed by the combination of voltage and resistance that creates the heat. Keep the air flow up and the wick wet and the heat drops to normal ranges. You just create more vapor and the ratios remain the same for the coil heat and vapor production. Sure, if you boil the juice fast enough to dry out the wick, you will create high levels of formaldehyde and acrolien.

14 watts on a coil with normal air flow will be hot. Open up the air and wick the juice to keep up and it's cool and flavorful. There's a big difference. The coil temperature is under control if you do the latter.

But, those who wish to denigrate vaping only care about spreading dissent, not maintaining any level of realism and accuracy.
 

Moonbogg

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Is vaping a 2.4ohm coil at 4.8 volts really that unrealistic? I'm vaping a 2ohm coil at 5 volts right now, although that coil is huge compared to the dinky garbage in a clearo. I think we need numbers on temperatures. Temperature is where the concern is, not on voltage or watts or anything else. Its all about temp.
 

DaveP

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Is vaping a 2.4ohm coil at 4.8 volts really that unrealistic? I'm vaping a 2ohm coil at 5 volts right now, although that coil is huge compared to the dinky garbage in a clearo. I think we need numbers on temperatures. Temperature is where the concern is, not on voltage or watts or anything else. Its all about temp.

It's about knowing what is safe and what's not. Hot isn't safe. Cooler is better in terms of unwanted chemical formation. You are right, it's more about temperature, but we currently have no way of monitoring that outside of judging the warmth of the vapor at the drip tip.

I heard a rumor here on ECF that Provape has a new product coming out soon that monitors coil temperature. That ought to shut up some naysayers, although it's rumored to max out at 24 watts. That's a hefty vape!

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...7782-provari-v3-arriving-shortly-details.html
 
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blueGrassTubb

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Is vaping a 2.4ohm coil at 4.8 volts really that unrealistic? I'm vaping a 2ohm coil at 5 volts right now, although that coil is huge compared to the dinky garbage in a clearo. I think we need numbers on temperatures. Temperature is where the concern is, not on voltage or watts or anything else. Its all about temp.

With a stock clearo head on an eGo VV, yes, it's VERY unrealistic.
 

blueGrassTubb

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It's about knowing what is safe and what's not. Hot isn't safe. Cooler is better in terms of unwanted chemical formation. You are right, it's more about temperature, but we currently have no way of monitoring that outside of judging the warmth of the vapor at the drip tip.

I heard a rumor here on ECF that Provape has a new product coming out soon that monitors coil temperature. That ought to shut up some naysayers, although it's rumored to max out at 24 watts. That's a hefty vape!

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...7782-provari-v3-arriving-shortly-details.html

I agree that's it's more about temperature than any particular settings. But the study itself didn't use those parameters, perhaps because they know that using voltage as a metric will resonate more. None of us have the ability to gauge temperature, most of us can control voltage.

24W is hefty? LOL
 

Kent C

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Nice take! This is also being discussed on the 'lung cancer' thread in this forum. More on formaldehyde in my post #24 there:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...er-like-normal-cigarettes-3.html#post13782313

And I'd point out that your link "yet more science" to Igor Burstyn's study is quite important and should, imo, be included in any 'comment' to the FDA. It addresses the errors and biases of many of the junk science 'studies' that the anti's will be submitting in their comments.

See especially - "General Comments on Method". For example:

"The only report that was excluded from consideration was work of McAuley et al.[24] because of clear evidence of cross-contamination – admitted to by the authors – with cigarette smoke and, possibly, reagents. The results pertaining to non-detection of tobacco-specific nitrosamines (TSNAs) are potentially trustworthy, but those related to polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) are not since it is incredible that cigarette smoke would contain fewer PAHs, which arise from incomplete combustion of organic matter, than aerosol of e-cigarettes that do not burn organic matter [24]. In fairness to the authors of that study, similar problems may have occurred in other studies but were simply not reported, but it is impossible to include a paper in a review once it is known for certain that its quantitative results are not trustworthy."

And even more telling, imo:

"It was judged that the simplest form of publication bias – disappearance of an entire formal study from the available literature – was unlikely given the exhaustive search strategy and the contested nature of the research question. It is clearly the case that only a portion of all industry technical reports were available for public access, so it is possible that those with more problematic results were systematically suppressed, though there is no evidence to support this speculation."

Here Igor is being 'very kind' to peers in stating that this is 'unlikely' and 'though there is no evidence to support this speculation' but then 'it is clearly the case that only a portion of all the industry technical reports were available....' IOW, there is no evidence this was done intentionally, only that it was done! This is the kindest way, I suppose, that someone can be accused of 'hiding data' or 'a general cover up'. lol

Pointing these instances out under this general heading, is most likely the type of stuff that Judge Leon saw most recently with the bias shown by the FDA wrt TPSAC's "conflicts of interest". The data in their studies are sometimes 'missing', includes cross contamination from smokers or from the environment, furniture, rugs.... they include obvious outliers in their studies of DRG and formaldehyde which later even the FDA rejected as scientifically significant. But they still report it and it make media headlines before it's finally rejected by them, but lives on in the minds of people who read the media but not the follow ups. :facepalm:
 

dragonpuff

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Ah... :D it's so refreshing to see such a well-written rebuttal to one of the most notorious anti-vaping studies to date! Well done!! :thumbs:

Is vaping a 2.4ohm coil at 4.8 volts really that unrealistic? I'm vaping a 2ohm coil at 5 volts right now, although that coil is huge compared to the dinky garbage in a clearo. I think we need numbers on temperatures. Temperature is where the concern is, not on voltage or watts or anything else. Its all about temp.

The device they were testing was identical to using an innokin iclear 16 on a vision spinner battery, so you can imagine puffing on that thing repeatedly at 4.8V - when I had that setup I couldn't crank it above 4.2V without it tasting nasty :yawn: ew!

And you're right, it is the temperature that produces the higher levels of formaldehyde, but we users don't have any realistic way to measure that. All we have is voltage, wattage, and type of coil. What I would like to see is if they can find out if whenever these high levels of formaldehyde are produced, the taste is so off-putting that no one would vape it :D studies have shown that formaldehyde tastes gnarly, so maybe there's protection built right in and we didn't even know it :vapor:
 

DaveP

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Maybe cars should be banned because they can reach speeds that are unsafe and can result in death for the driver and bystanders. Children could be in the automobile at that time, therefore cars should be banned to save the children.

That's not far from a parallel to ecigs being questioned because of what some people could do with them that is dangerous. Hammers are often used as deadly instruments ... ad nauseam.

It's not about saving our health. It's about eradicating look-alikes by people who just hate smoking in any form.
 
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dragonpuff

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That mask slipped long ago.

The ANTZ are far more interested in sticking it to Big Tobacco than they are in any kind of harm reduction.

Have you ever known someone who holds desperately onto their belief, no matter what evidence there is against it? That's how I think of ANTZ - they uphold their views as a philosophy and a way of life and will raise heck if anyone tries to go against it.

At least this is the case for those who aren't getting paid for it, but really believe in their cause.

Little do they know the kind of people they are serving by doing so... anytime a policy is based on maintaining disbelief, you can bet there's someone evil behind it.
 
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