Vaping Tax

[Memphis Weirdo]

In 1999, the price of cigarettes took a major spike upwards, mainly due to the flurry of legal judgements against big tobacco in frivolous law suits brought by irresponsible ......, and also due to a surge in new local/state/federal taxes on cigarettes. tobacco became a very trendy target for tax-happy politicians. That was when I decided to find an alternative, and I began "stuffing" my own... with loose tobacco, the tubes w/ filter already attached, and the little machine that stuffed the tobacco into the tubes. At that time, it was costing me around 75 cents to make a pack of 20, and I actually liked the routine of making my own cigarettes.

Two years ago, inflation had increased my cost from 75 cents per pack in 1999 to a little over a dollar a pack, but that was still great.

THEN... around two years ago, the feds finally realized that there was a relatively unmolested group of tobacco users who were escaping abusive taxation, and they hit us HARD. In one brutal instant, my cost jumped to over $3.00 per pack.

This insane taxation, along with a huge desire to NOT contribute any more money to the government than necessary, is one of the major reasons why I am so happy to have discovered the wonderful world of "vaping". I am now in my 4th day of being analog-free, and everything is GREAT... no cravings, no DT's, and I thoroughly enjoy vaping. Plus...

I AM STARVING THE BEAST.

The government can learn to live without the blood of cigarette taxes that they have been squeezing out of me.

Anyhow, here's the question. Sooner or later, they will realize that they are losing tax revenues from former cigarette smokers who are kicking the cigarette habit. When (and how) will the government specifically come after vapers with new taxes?

Right now, we may not be a big enough subculture for them to bother with, but I know that it's just a matter of time before they try something. It's in their nature.

 

[DC2]

Basically, tobacco products are supposed to be taxed according to the degree of harm involved.

I assume these are the current Federal Excise Taxes...
TTBGov Tax and Fee Rates

Tobacco Products          1000 units      Pack of 20
Small Cigarettes            $50.33          $1.01
Large Cigarettes           $105.69          $2.11
Small Cigars                $50.33          $1.01
 
Tobacco Products              1 lb.       Tin or Pouch
Pipe Tobacco                 $2.8311        $0.1769
Chewing Tobacco              $0.5033        $0.0315
Snuff                        $1.51          $0.0944
Roll-your-own Tobacco       $24.78          $1.5488

Electronic cigarettes should be taxed at rates comparable to snuff and snus.

That doesn't mean they won't try to do something outrageous and without justification.
But it will be up to all of us to fight to make sure everyone is, at the very least, properly educated.

 

[cconti]

Good luck taxing cake flavorings and PG/VG. Any idiot can learn to mix their own flavors. I'd like to see how they can tax those.

Taxing the devices I can see, but compared to taxing each puff the returns will be slim.

but maybe I am naive. Although, I would not mind reasonable taxation. As the other poster said, commensurate to the degree of damage it creates.

I am one of those rare folks that don't mind reasonable taxes because I understand that they are a necessity of living in a society. In principal, I don't even mind high tobacco taxes. Heck, they may even be helpful to steer people to vaping, which is better for them and for those around them.

However, it doesn't mean I agree with egregiously high taxation and discrimination through taxation.

 

[Taniger1]

Good luck taxing cake flavorings and PG/VG. Any idiot can learn to mix their own flavors. I'd like to see how they can tax those.

Taxing the devices I can see, but compared to taxing each puff the returns will be slim.

but maybe I am naive. Although, I would not mind reasonable taxation. As the other poster said, commensurate to the degree of damage it creates.

I am one of those rare folks that don't mind reasonable taxes because I understand that they are a necessity of living in a society. In principal, I don't even mind high tobacco taxes. Heck, they may even be helpful to steer people to vaping, which is better for them and for those around them.

However, it doesn't mean I agree with egregiously high taxation and discrimination through taxation.

In comeplete agreement here! A certain amount of taxation is a MUST for any country. I think what I object to is the frivolous nature in which our taxes are SPENT! I suspect most people feel this way.

 

[Iffy]

be taxed according to the degree of harm involved.

In that case, tax on 'hot dogs' should go outta sight!

 

[Katiecat]

I wouldn't mind a reasonable tax. We pay taxes when we purchase everyday items like shoes and toilet paper. Why shouldn't we pay taxes for vape supplies?

 

[Maxine]

There are so many ways government could raise money without taxes: PBS fund drives, car washes, slave auctions (I'd pay to have [senator's name here] wash my windows), bake sales... I don't think the powers that be are really trying.

 

[Katiecat]

There are so many ways government could raise money without taxes: PBS fund drives, car washes, slave auctions (I'd pay to have [senator's name here] wash my windows), bake sales... I don't think the powers that be are really trying.

Are you being serious, or was that sarcasm? Do you really think our government can raise the billions of dollars every year that it costs to run our country by selling cupcakes? My husband is in the military, and taxes are used to pay his salary. I wouldn't be too happy if we suddenly stopped getting paid because Uncle Sam didn't sell enough cookies this year

 

[Maxine]

Are those my only choices? Otherwise, I'm going with facetious...

 

[earthpig]

It isn't that a certain amount of taxation is bad, but when it gets to idiotic levels, we need to revolt.
Cigs cost about $1.00 a pack to produce and distribute, and most outlets make another $.50c to $.75c on them. The rest is a form of tax wether fed/state/county/other.

They have just started doing the same with soft drinks and beverages in NY and Chicago, and it once was referred to the "twinkie tax" in sugar or fat . It starts out small (like cig taxes did) and when the consumers get accustomed , they sneak it up.

On these, the only really taxable item is the nicotine, and it can be added later, but it would drastically harm the industry, since most is already added to fluids.
Time will tell where it ends up.
I personally will be considering storing raw nic (100mg in a vg base) in fairly large quantities for my own usage. It keeps very well, and if oxygen is kept out, it's kept cool, and in a dark location, I don't think they really know the shelf life, but it is a minimum of 2 yrs, in normal conditions and some are saying a somewhat indefinite time in ideal conditions. No one has been able to tell me in any authoritive manner.

Pig.

 

[Memphis Weirdo]

Like I said, I'm very new to this whole vaping world, and I'm sure there is a lot that has gone on that I don't know about.

Has there yet been any attempt to demonize vapers as, maybe, calling them "semi-smokers"?

Has anyone made any attempts to declare that the devices and/or chemicals are hazardous?

Has anyone started claiming that second-hand vapor is killing innocent children by the millions?

Has anyone started claiming that PV's are being used as weapons against women in abusive domestic situations?

Before the government creates a new tax, they ALWAYS have to run a propaganda campaign to demonize the future tax victims. Of course, it's all a money-grab, but they always play their PR cards the same way.

 

[DC2]

Before the government creates a new tax, they ALWAYS have to run a propaganda campaign to demonize the future tax victims. Of course, it's all a money-grab, but they always play their PR cards the same way.

Yes, the propaganda machine is in full swing, and being funded by Big Pharma.
The foot soldiers are the health and/or anti-smoking groups like ALA, ACS, AHA, CTFK, and the rest of the alphabet soup.

And the propaganda tactics include all of the following...
--Think Of The Children
--We don't know what's in them
--It is a gateway to smoking

But the main tactic is a major shift that is slowly taking place...
These groups used to be anti-smoking, but they are slowly shifting to becoming anti-nicotine.

 

[Twisty]

Are you being serious, or was that sarcasm? Do you really think our government can raise the billions of dollars every year that it costs to run our country by selling cupcakes? My husband is in the military, and taxes are used to pay his salary. I wouldn't be too happy if we suddenly stopped getting paid because Uncle Sam didn't sell enough cookies this year

Billions? Oh how quaint. This is the age of hope and change. Now it's TRILLIONS.

 

[Twisty]

Now for a serious answer. When vaping puts a significant dent into cig tax revenue the taxing authorities may impose a tax on e-juice. Most likely taking the big companies advertising that 1 ml of 16 mg =1 pack of cigs.

 

[zoiDman]

Good luck taxing cake flavorings and PG/VG. Any idiot can learn to mix their own flavors. I'd like to see how they can tax those.
...

There not going to tax Flavorings, They will Tax the Nicotine Base Liquid.

And the question is not "IF", it's "When".

 

[Iffy]

They will Tax the Nicotine Base Liquid.

And the question is not "IF", it's "When".

Sad, but inevitable...

I will be watching for the deep discounted sales (even though I don't DIY... yet!)

 

[mwa102464]

There not going to tax Flavorings, They will Tax the Nicotine Base Liquid.

And the question is not "IF", it's "When".

Agreed fully !!!

 

[Nicko]

There is a lot to be learned by reading the posts in the media news and legislation news areas of this forum.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Memphis Weirdo -

I suppose that 2 years ago you missed the shift of R/SYO producers of bagged tobacco to producing 'pipe tobacco.' Yes, there was a definite shift of tastes, but it worked as well. Thus, some 4 months ago when I placed my first order for e-cigs and juice, Captain Jack was an included flavor as it is quite pipe tobacco-like. The bottom line on that is that my vaping cost, other than splurging like crazy and having fun, are approximately the same as it was for my stuffing routine. No savings here.

Also, much of those tobacco taxes were based in the notion that tobacco caused a real burden to the governments in terms of health care costs borne by the taxpayers.

On the matter of possible taxes on nicotine base, I'm a bit chagrined by the 'it's going to happen' attitude which I find with many vapers.

As well, I think the notion of 'fighting taxation' is lacking in imagination.

I suggest there are alternatives that the e-cig interests can create as an olive branch to the government. I don't pretend that such alternatives might be without their own burdens of expense on we e-cig users, but it may be a matter of where the balance of control lays.

One notion that comes to my mind is the professionalizing of the e-cig industry. That might take the form of certification of commercial suppliers and mixers of e-juice. If this is done from within the industry, it can be offered to the government as a form of self-regulation.

What does self-regulation do to negate the perceived need to tax? It keeps the burden of public safety as it relates to consumers in the private hands of the industry and creates no regularity burdens for governments. If the industry is prepared to self regulate and can promote that to the governments, the argument regarding the governments' need to regulate and thus tax is certainly diminished. Arguments for the 'needs of the government coffers' are paler and more clearly cash-grabs. Thus they carry less weight being focused on a sector that puts little, if any significant and ongoing burden on the government.

Engaging the government in discussions of self-regulation and such puts a responsibility on the industry. One might expect those who would take on such to prepare themselves for the effort. Matters such as long sleeved shirts and dropping grunge looks might be expected of citizens who would embark on discourse with their representatives in the halls of government.

Professionalizing within the industry is but one notion. With the many good and creative minds in the e-cig industry and among e-cig users, I expect that many additional positive ideas can be had.

The mindset among those here who think 'taxes are going to happen,' does nothing to dissuade and perhaps provides encouragement those who would tax. Further, it allows those with such an self-justifying outlook to take no action at all.

One suggested that I take a role and get involved in such. To them I say, I am involved. I'm here and I am trying to change minds within our numbers. "You have to start from where you're at."

 

[DC2]

One notion that comes to my mind is the professionalizing of the e-cig industry. That might take the form of certification of commercial suppliers and mixers of e-juice. If this is done from within the industry, it can be offered to the government as a form of self-regulation.

The now defunct ECA was the first stab at this that I'm aware of.

But that organization never got anywhere near the support it needed from most vendors.
And supposedly that was because they did not represent the industry so much as they represented NJoy.

And currently, we have another stab being taken with TVECA.
My understanding is that a lot of people don't like the strategy they've decided to pursue.

And in between the two we've had a lot of talk but no real movement.
The vendors, as a group. just can't seem to pull together.

On the other hand, this has already been accomplished in the UK, where ECITA has been formed.
They have even offered to help us get something rolling here in the states.
I haven't heard of any takers yet though.

One suggested that I take a role and get involved in such. To them I say, I am involved. I'm here and I am trying to change minds within our numbers. "You have to start from where you're at."

Have you heard of CASAA yet?

That's them down there in my signature.