Voltage is king? How about wattage?

[Sedateme]

I've been doing a ton of reading about, well, everything. My question is about voltage, resistance, and it's effect on your vaping experience.

There is a lot of variable voltage and high voltage devices out there. I have an eGo from madvapes. It is the black battery, and from what I gather it hangs out around 3.2-3.4 volts. I mainly drip on the atomizer that came with the kit, at 2.5 ohms. Voltage squared, divided by resistance (ohms law yay) gives us wattage figures of 4.096 watts to 4.624 watts (3.2 to 3.4v).

Back to my question: Is there any practical, or experienced difference between different voltages but same wattage ratings? For instance: a 3.7v unit using a 1.7 ohm atty/carto puts out 8.05 watts. At 5v and 3.1 ohms its at 8.06 watts. What would be the difference in vaping the same liquid in these 2 setups? Is it the same since the wattage calculations come out the same?

Also, I did find a pretty neat chart while poking around for this post... wish I would have found it first, would have saved me a bit of calculator time. Check it out http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...useful-weekly-newsletter-madvapes-wattage.xls

 

[BardicDruid]

I've been around electronics for 20+ years, I see people in here raving about variable voltage, I personally can't see the point. Fact is you get much above 10 or 11 watts on the coil and your burning the e-liquid instead of vaporizing it, so instead of getting vapor your getting smoke from burnt e-liquid. I've been using several 3.7 volt devices for two years now, keeping the atty or carto resistance around 2.5 ohms and everything works just great. If you want to constantly tinker and change your voltage go for it, I just look at it as just more stuff to go wrong with the device. I just keep it simple and enjoy my vaping.

 

[Levitas]

It's about preference. If there was an atty/carto/ce2 or whatever you use in any and every resistance, then voltage is just a potential to reach your favorite power level. But that's not the case. All attys/cartos etc are not created equal and everyone has a preference of one over another.

I might LOVE the Cisco 510 1.5ohm, and using a 3.7v device is good but nothing, (imo), beats it at just around 4v. A freshly charged battery will generally yield around 4v, but unless the voltage is regulated, it'll eventually die down and I would need to switch batteries. Not ideal for me, personally.

That being said, if I found that a Cisco 1.5ohm at 4v is my perfect vape, so to speak, then I shouldn't have to worry about changing the voltage, right? Because I've found my perfect power level for that particular juice.

If you can find your favorite way to vape without the need to alter voltage, rather, able to do so without having multiple devices that give you multiple voltages, more power to ya, seriously! However, I am not as fortunate, it would seem. See, because through my limited experience, I've found that I really like the draw on one atty for 'x' juice but for 'y' juice, this cartomizer really hits the spot. But then again, the voltage difference between 'x' and 'y' juice is enough to justify having a device that can change output voltage to suit my wants and tastes.

I understand your question, or one of them, which is, does it really make a difference as long as the wattage comes out to the same. I honestly do not know. I do know that having the ability to adjust power/potential to any atty/carto/etc is ideal for someone like me, where as I can get close to my vaping zen using the standard 3.7v or 5v devices, I don't believe I need to settle, because there are other options out there, I surely plan to utilize them

Ymmv. Two cents in.

 

[rustybikes]

This is exactly where the Darwin shines. I'm still relatively new to the mod scene, and the Darwin is my first, so the notion that I have to break out a spreadsheet to calculate the "optimal" voltage for the juice/atty combo I'm running is completely unappealing to me. I just want to get my "fix", after all.

With the Darwin I get a sense, over time, of what wattage for a particular juice is most satisfying (to me) with TH, clouds of vapor, etc.. Once I know that, I just set the the level and run with it. I don't have to mess about with measuring and keeping track of the resistance on my atties. I don't have to do any maths, not worried about voltage levels, amperage. I remember a catch-phrase from one of those horrid info-mercials that applies here - "Just set it and forget it!!" - this is what the Darwin does for me.

As a bonus, my taste for a particular juice changes a bit during the day. In the morning, a little less TH, and cooler vapor. As the day wears on, I find myself gravitating to warmer vapor with more TH. Changing this on the fly (without a spreadsheet) is a "must-have" IMO..

 

[tj99959]

This will help you navigate through a lot of the BS
Ohm's Law Calculator

However, does the same juice taste different @5v than it does @3.7v (at the same wattage)? Yes it does. But, remember that taste is subjective, and you would need to decide for yourself which you liked best.
For me personally my sweet spot is 8 watts +/- 0.3. Knowing that I can find a combination that I like at any voltage you want to use.
So I don't have a VV mod for no other reason than I don't need it.
I don't like 6v vaping, so I don't have anything set for it, but I vape at 3.4, 3,7, and 5v all the time. I just have different atties/cartos for the different voltages.

 

[Sedateme]

I am aware of the Darwin, but I don't care for the way it looks, nor the price point. But that is neither here nor there. It does bring up the fact that Darwin owners may be the perfect people to answer my question. You can simply dial in a setting, it senses the resistance of your atty/cartomizer, and supplies the right amount of voltage. So, rustybikes, or any Darwin owner for that matter, let me pick your brain(s) a bit. Let's say you have one single juice for this experiment. You have a selection of cartomizers/atomizers from the same company (lets just say Boge for the sake of keeping it simple) in different resistance levels. Are there differences in the way our one juice tastes in different resistive and voltage combinations, if the Darwin adjusts and keeps the wattage the same?

Edit: Thank you for the straight answer, tj. You responded while I was typing this post out.

 

[Icoth]

Wattage is not the only factor that determines the vaping experience. Does anyone really believe an 801 will vape the same as a 306 at the exact same wattage (even using loaded voltage)? I read a thread some time back that listed numerous factors that influence the experience, draw, length of atty, diameter of atty, etc. The originally post listed quite a few, with more and more added as the thread continued. Perhaps you could generalized the effect as "efficiency".

Personally, I don't think even one atty performs with the same efficiency as it moves through cleaning and life cycles. Constant wattage doesn't give a consistent vaping experience. How noticeable or important this is to you will vary. Everyone has their own range of acceptable and optimal, and the value of vv probably depends a lot on how wide your personal ranges are.

 

[Chinner]

I am aware of the Darwin, but I don't care for the way it looks, nor the price point. But that is neither here nor there. It does bring up the fact that Darwin owners may be the perfect people to answer my question. You can simply dial in a setting, it senses the resistance of your atty/cartomizer, and supplies the right amount of voltage. So, rustybikes, or any Darwin owner for that matter, let me pick your brain(s) a bit. Let's say you have one single juice for this experiment. You have a selection of cartomizers/atomizers from the same company (lets just say Boge for the sake of keeping it simple) in different resistance levels. Are there differences in the way our one juice tastes in different resistive and voltage combinations, if the Darwin adjusts and keeps the wattage the same?

Edit: Thank you for the straight answer, tj. You responded while I was typing this post out.

The short answer is yes, as long as the wattage is the same, the Taste should be the same. The wattage is a direct measurement of the temperature of the coil, or how hot or cool the vape is. A HV atty requires more power to achieve 10 watts then a LR one, but the 10 watts remains the same.

It's like how a 4 cylinder car will rev higher then a V8 when doing 100mph, but they will still be doing the same speed.

 

[rustybikes]

Like TJ mentions, the perception of taste/sensation is very subjective, so this is just my opinion. YMMV and all the other standard disclaimers apply..

That said, I seem to have gravitated to CE2 cartos and tanks, but I'd bet my experience would be similar with a variety of Boges or Joye atties in various resistances. I've CE2s in 2.4-2.6Ω and 3.0-3.2Ω versions, and it's not unusual for 2 cartos in the same box to read differently - one might be at 2.8Ω and another at 3.3Ω.

The other variable is the juice. My (current) daily-vape is Nhaler's RY4 which, being a daily-vape, isn't really much of a variable in this equation.

My experience is that vaping at 7.3 watts with a CE2 at 2.9Ω isn't really all that different than running one (at the same wattage) that clocks in at 3.3Ω. Again, it's all subjective, and if there's any noticeable difference (to me), it's in the atty's behaviour (hissing, popping, etc.) far more than the vapor that it produces.

So, I'd have to subjectively say that, no, varying the resistance of the atty doesn't really affect the flavour with the Darwin. But that's just me..

Another variable to add to this mix is airflow. Indeed, this may be one of the most subjective elements in my setup. If I pull a fast hit, it'll be a little cooler than a slow one, despite what the display on the Darwin reads. One of the (many?) influences on this is the internal structure of the carto. With the CE2s, for instance, if the top cap (the one that grips the coil-cup) is misaligned or torn up, it can interfere with airflow. Also, adding more complexity to the equation, I'll sometimes catch myself drawing faster when I'm stressed out, or a little slower when I'm distracted with something I'm working on. So, mental/emotional/environmental factors can figure in here. (And here you thought you were asking a "simple" question.. ha. )

As for not liking the Darwin's looks - that's cool. Another subjective detail (yay!) in the mix. I dimly recall seeing a post (here?) somewhere saying that Evolv (manufacturer of the Darwin) may soon be opening things a bit, such that it will eventually be possible to build a Darwin "clone" (with different batteries). If true, I'm looking forward to wild variety of mods that could be built on this platform. Until I can find the link(s), count this as 99.999% rumour/speculation, of course.

 

[heliguy]

I have a darwin and love it. I also like to use different attys and cartos with different ohm ratings. With the darwin i can throw anything on it spin the wheel. Within seconds i have a perect vape. Every hit is like the first untill the battery is dead. It really doesnt get any better or easier than this. I also like to try new stuff when it comes out and knowing that i can dial in in seconds is great.

The darwin is just plain easy to use.

 

[heliguy]

A friend at work was on the phone with evolve and they said they are working on a darwin with a built in feeder that will be out this winter. Also they are working on an attachment you can by for 30 dollars that will turn any mod into a darwin. This is what he told me. How much of this is true i have no clue.

 

[tj99959]

The darwin is just plain easy to use.

Turn it off with a J-tank mounted on it.

The Darwin fits some folks needs to a T, but not so much for others. And, that's not a bit different than the way it is with any mod you want to name.

 

[Sedateme]

Thank you all for the responses so far. The reason I asked this question was just to get a better idea of how things work. There's sooooooo much out there and it's hard for a new vaper to wrap their head around sometimes. I'm just glad the community here is as helpful as it is. It's a huge support system for smoking cessation and I appreciate every single bit of help you guys offer.

 

[MickeyRat]

Voltage isn't king alone. It's just the easiest thing to vary. I don't have a Darwin but, I suspect that it varies the wattage by adjusting the voltage.

One thing to keep in mind is that configurations that run on the same number of watts won't necessarily taste or feel just the same. For instance, I use a 2.5 ohm 901 on a VV at home either dripping or with a madvapes DOD. Out and about I use a 3.7 V bottom feeder. It requires the same number of watts to run 1.8 ohm atomizer at 3.7V as it does to run a 2.5 ohm atomizer at 4.36V but, they don't taste quite the same. I will say they are close. The 1.8 ohm is a little hotter and harsher. That's because the resistance is in a different configuration. The 2.5 ohm probably has more coils than the 1.8 ohm so each particle of juice is heated a little less.

 

[CaptainCook]

This will help you navigate through a lot of the BS
Ohm's Law Calculator

However, does the same juice taste different @5v than it does @3.7v (at the same wattage)? Yes it does. But, remember that taste is subjective, and you would need to decide for yourself which you liked best.

can someone explain to me how this would taste different? If you are operating at the same wattage, I can't see how the taste would be any different, regardless if you got to 8 watts via a 5 volt battery and one resistance of atty, vs 8 watts via a 3 volt battery on a different resistance atty...

 

[markfm]

The nice thing, to me, of regulated variable voltage is that I can adjust it throughout the day without switching atties or cartos. I vape pretty exclusively my own DIY blend, with cartos that I like (find they give decent service). I'll tend to be right around 5V/8W, much of the time, but at various points I may choose to drop voltage for a cooler vape, or increase it for slightly warmer, depends on what I'm doing. The PV stays at that precise setting until I choose to adjust it again.
The above just can't be done with a classic stick PV, without flipping cartos/atties. My daily kit consists of the one PV plus a small bottle of eliquid (to top off the carto).

 

[AttyPops]

Some thoughts.

Voltage, amperage and Wattage. Since watts = volt * amps, volts are of course part of the equation. As you pretty much stated, amps are determined by the resistance. However, there's other factors at play with a heating coil heating a given volume of e-liquid.... mostly the size of the coil.

So, to lower the resistance, you shorten the coil, or thicken the coil, or add coils in parallel, and it all changes the surface area exposed to the liquid. So if we really had a measurement it would probably be watts per square mm or something similar.

So, thus, watts is still only 1/2 the equation. Also, higher voltage is more efficient than lowering resistance due to the squaring of volts in Watts = V * V / R. Also, the higher voltage devices often have better voltage regulation to give a more consistent vape.

Best guesses, 2 cents.

 

[Vermonster13]

So wattage is queen is what you're all saying.

 

[six]

can someone explain to me how this would taste different? If you are operating at the same wattage, I can't see how the taste would be any different, regardless if you got to 8 watts via a 5 volt battery and one resistance of atty, vs 8 watts via a 3 volt battery on a different resistance atty...

Load, surface area of the coil, and how fast the coil heats up (which is actually part of load, but I'm not going to get that involved with this post). - Those are three major differences in how a 3.0v device and a 5.0v device will make the same juice taste different at the same wattage output.

Load is a big deal but is usually disregarded in forum discussions. When you think you are vaping at 3.7v with an unregulated device, you are actually probably no where near 3.7v. My best 18650 3.7v IMR battery charged to 4.2v can push just under 3.6v with a 2.0 ohm coil fresh off the charger. My standard li-on 18650s fresh off the charger at 4.2v range from 3.2 to 3.4 load volts with a 2.0 ohm coil. And, that decreases as the battery drains -- My 5.0v regulated device with a couple of freshly charged batts will produce 5.0v with any coil I put on it. It continues to do so until the batteries are drained. My VV regulated device produces whatever voltage I set it to with whatever coil until the batteries are drained. - The regulated devices are not limited in the same way a single 3.7v battery is.

Coil surface area: Coils are made from nicrome wire. Nicrome wire is rated 1 foot = X ohms. I'm going to just quote a recent post from fantwriter instead of typing this all up:

The length determines the ohms. It doesn't matter if you make it into one big loop or a hundred tiny loops.
If the wire is rated at 12 ohms per foot, then 1 inch is 1 ohm, 6 inches is 6 ohms, etc.
If the wire is rated at 24 ohms per foot, then 1 inch is 2 ohms, 6 inches is 12 ohms, etc.
I just looked at the site and see that it's rated 27ohms/ft, so each inch of wire has a resistance of 2.25 ohms.
For 1.5 ohms, you need 0.66 inches.
For 3.5 ohms, you need 1.55 inches.

So, the coil built to get to 8 watts with a 3.0v battery made from the same ohm rated wire as one built to get to 8 watts on a 5.0v device is going to have a far different amount of surface area. You need a 1.125 ohm coil to get to 8 watts at 3.0v and you need a 3.125 ohm coil to get to 8 watts on 5.0v. Even if you have a coil made from nicrome with a lower ohm rating per foot, you're still going to end up with a lot less surface area creating the coil for the 3.0v device vs the 5.0v device. It would be difficult and expensive to manufacture nicrome wire that would match length for 1.125 and 3.125 ohms... and even if you match length, you can't match gauge so the surface area is still going to be different.

How fast a coil gets up to temperature. Well, attypops just wrote something yesterday that puts this in perspective. It's sort of like driving a car with a 4 cyl vs driving a car with an 8 cyl engine. Both will get you up to freeway speed, but the 8 cyl has more oomph and can get you there faster. The greater energy turns in to product faster.

 

[CaptainCook]

Load, surface area of the coil, and how fast the coil heats up (which is actually part of load, but I'm not going to get that involved with this post). - Those are three major differences in how a 3.0v device and a 5.0v device will make the same juice taste different at the same wattage output.

Load is a big deal but is usually disregarded in forum discussions. When you think you are vaping at 3.7v with an unregulated device, you are actually probably no where near 3.7v. My best 18650 3.7v IMR battery charged to 4.2v can push just under 3.6v with a 2.0 ohm coil fresh off the charger. My standard li-on 18650s fresh off the charger at 4.2v range from 3.2 to 3.4 load volts with a 2.0 ohm coil. And, that decreases as the battery drains -- My 5.0v regulated device with a couple of freshly charged batts will produce 5.0v with any coil I put on it. It continues to do so until the batteries are drained. My VV regulated device produces whatever voltage I set it to with whatever coil until the batteries are drained. - The regulated devices are not limited in the same way a single 3.7v battery is.

Coil surface area: Coils are made from nicrome wire. Nicrome wire is rated 1 foot = X ohms. I'm going to just quote a recent post from fantwriter instead of typing this all up:



So, the coil built to get to 8 watts with a 3.0v battery made from the same ohm rated wire as one built to get to 8 watts on a 5.0v device is going to have a far different amount of surface area. You need a 1.125 ohm coil to get to 8 watts at 3.0v and you need a 3.125 ohm coil to get to 8 watts on 5.0v. Even if you have a coil made from nicrome with a lower ohm rating per foot, you're still going to end up with a lot less surface area creating the coil for the 3.0v device vs the 5.0v device. It would be difficult and expensive to manufacture nicrome wire that would match length for 1.125 and 3.125 ohms... and even if you match length, you can't match gauge so the surface area is still going to be different.

How fast a coil gets up to temperature. Well, attypops just wrote something yesterday that puts this in perspective. It's sort of like driving a car with a 4 cyl vs driving a car with an 8 cyl engine. Both will get you up to freeway speed, but the 8 cyl has more oomph and can get you there faster. The greater energy turns in to product faster.

Thanks for the info six..... but there are a couple things I still can't wrap my head around....

I'm going to dis-regard "load" and "voltage drop under load".... a non-regulated battery will drop voltage constantly during the entire discharge resulting in different wattage at the atty... i'm concerned about the difference in taste between 3 volts at 8 watts vs 5 volts at 8 watts... I know from first hand experience the difference in taste between 3 volts at 4 watts compared to 3 volts at 8 watts...

I'm very curious as to how quickly a coil heats up changes the taste? does water vapor that was brought to a boil slowly taste differently than water vapor that was brought to a boil quickly? I really don't get this one, and would appreciate more info...

I am sorta getting how the taste would be different from the reduced surface area of a low resistance atty vs the greater heating surface area of a high resistance atty.... but..... the lower resistance atty is going to be operating at a higher temp per surface area..... so... does water vapor boiled in a smaller but hotter pan taste differently than water vapor boiled from a larger but cooler pan??

sorry to come across as so obtuse... but I'd really like to understand this....