We're outmatched.

[guyvelella]

Wheres the science behind this? There is no valid scientific reason that ecig vapor is killing anyone. Its nothing compared to 2nd hand tobacco smoke!

 

[Davey59]

Wheres the science behind this? There is no valid scientific reason that ecig vapor is killing anyone. Its nothing compared to 2nd hand tobacco smoke!

I know right? two times nothing has to be even less than nothing.

 

[guyvelella]

you have to educate the public

 

[bigdancehawk]

you have to educate the public

I agree, but the public gets most of its "education" on these issues from what it mistakenly believes are reliable and unbiased sources: ALA, AHA, CDC, FDA, Tobacco Free Kids, Surgeon General, Wikipedia, NY Times, etc. These sources enjoy a good reputation and most are extremely well funded.

 

[WharfRat1976]

While it's easy (and understandable) to focus on the losses, it's also important to remember that we don't lose them all. For example, while I don't have any details, I heard last night that we won in Crystal Lake, Illinois. In Baltimore, local advocates were able to obtain a compromise position which, while not ideal, was certainly better than an all-out ban wherever smoking is prohibited.

Yes, we're taking a bit of a beating at the local level, but it'd be far worse if we were to not show up and fight.

I personally think our best strategy is for brick and mortar shops to become responsible, active, engaged corporate citizens in their cities. Much of the local action is fueled by fear and misperception . . . a vague feeling that what we're doing is kind of shady and that vape shops are really glorified head shops. I think that type of misperception can be put to rest by vape shops becoming more involved in the local community. It won't completely forestall bad ordinances being introduced, but it will take some fuel off the fire, imo.

And although we're seeing some losses, it's also important to recognize that those losses aren't the sole measure of our success. I have heard many, many stories of local doctors urging their patients who've had no success with traditional quit smoking routes to go to a vape shop (and many doctors are giving out the names of the shops to their customers, so this isn't just a casual suggestion). So clearly some doctors are getting the message, and, at the end of the day, more devices are getting into the hands of those who can benefit from them. That is no small thing.

Crystal Lake, Illinois is as blue collar a town as you can get. Interesting. FWIW.

 

[WharfRat1976]

When government goes out of its way to avoid being accountable and transparent, it's because they know full well they're engaged in malfeasance and they don't wish to be caught.

MALFEASANCE MR. POTTER!!! (Note to self: Watch It's A Wonderful Life)

 

[WharfRat1976]

I'm not saying your points are without merit, but these are pretty broad conclusions to draw from one council meeting in one city.

Yea but this City Council meeting will be and is being repeated across the land at every City Council meeting...Well not "every" but you get my drifts...

 

[WharfRat1976]

The larger cities are very difficult, primarily because we know that an incredible amount of backdoor lobbying has been going on for quite some time before they get to the point of actually voting on an ordinance. I'm honestly not sure what else could have been done in Minneapolis other than a local doctor testifying. But that's not easy . . . many doctors are afraid of getting caught up in the politics of it all or coming under negative scrutiny by professional boards.

But in the smaller cities, places where the legislators tend to be more responsive to their citizens and where local businesses are a part of the community, we have a much better shot. Here's a piece about the Crystal Lake win from last night:



Crystal Lake votes to not further regulate e-cigarettes | Northwest Herald

But also note that this doesn't appear to have been an issue that was pushed by the ANTZ . . . "The idea had originally come before the council as part of routine proposals by staff based on issues they think the council might want to weigh in on, Shepley said."

Great post. Dr. William D. Silkworth, a physician, stood up to big booze and the AMA (not sure it existed at the time but the medical field as a whole) in the 30's and promoted Alcoholics Anonymous. Look at it now.

 

[WharfRat1976]

There are a couple things (some) shop owners are doing that probably cause us more harm than good:

1) Not being fully apprised of the political situation and having no desire to get involved. Many are taking the attitude of "These things are probably going to get banned soon, so I'm just going to keep my head down and make as much money as possible before the government puts me out of business." This only feeds the perception that they're engaged in a shady enterprise that operates within a moral/legal grey area.

2) Being interviewed in local media and coming off looking and sounding like a complete buffoon. Some of the most cringe-worthy factual misstatements you'll ever hear come from vape shop owners giving interviews on local TV. Also, feel free to put on a decent shirt (or, Xenu forbid, a tie) and trim your neck beard if you're going to be on television representing an entire industry. The reporters, as reporters are wont to do when engaged in sensationalist coverage, will always seek out the most potentially sinister-looking shop owner they can find, but let's not make their job too ridiculously easy.

LOL- Hilarious.

 

[Jenn Perry]

Rite Aid Pharmacies have decided to remove all "Flavored" liquids for ecigs. Their excuse...it appeals to children. I have to ask though, when we turn 18 or 21 does our adult taste buds change? Do we then dislike things with flavors. What about flavored alcohol that appeals to children. Anything and adult does and kids cannot do APPEALS TO CHILDREN. It's the parents who should take responsibility for their kids not the government being my kids' nanny.

 

[DC2]

I agree, but the public gets most of its "education" on these issues from what it mistakenly believes are reliable and unbiased sources: ALA, AHA, CDC, FDA, Tobacco Free Kids, Surgeon General, Wikipedia, NY Times, etc. These sources enjoy a good reputation and most are extremely well funded.

And this is EXACTLY the problem.

And the only way I can see to overcome this is by one-on-one education.
Because we will probably never get the media to come over to our side, due to sensationalism or monetary concerns.

WE have to make this happen.
All of us, everyday.

 

[DC2]

Rite Aid Pharmacies have decided to remove all "Flavored" liquids for ecigs. Their excuse...it appeals to children. I have to ask though, when we turn 18 or 21 does our adult taste buds change? Do we then dislike things with flavors. What about flavored alcohol that appeals to children. Anything and adult does and kids cannot do APPEALS TO CHILDREN. It's the parents who should take responsibility for their kids not the government being my kids' nanny.

It makes one wonder if they are selling Nicorette Fruit Chill or Cinnamon Surge flavors.

 

[Kent C]

It makes one wonder if they are selling Nicorette Fruit Chill or Cinnamon Surge flavors.

https://shop.riteaid.com/medicine-health/stop-smoking/nicorette?p=1

I like their blurb "Stay Focused" The know what they're selling... they know it's affect.

 

[Kent C]

And the only way I can see to overcome this is by one-on-one education.
Because we will probably never get the media to come over to our side, due to sensationalism or monetary concerns.

Actually if CNN had actual 'monetary concerns' they would put on better programing. It's their 'political concerns' that run that network and not much else - (same for the bigger money loser MSNBC) - although I see they finally threw out Candy Crowley, the albatross they hung over Republican candidates for decades now.

10 Things About The U.S. News Media That They Do Not Want You To Know | MND - Your Daily Dose of Counter-Theory
http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2014/03/msnbc-is-in-serious-trouble-185770.html

 

[Frenchfry1942]

Recently, two separate people, working for the government (one elected) were recorded having said that the people are stupid and they don't read what is actually being done. I thought about that and I believe it, people don't read. They assume that the media is honest, the internet is always truthful, and that elected officials work for the people.

The Opinion/Editorial Page of our local newspaper will publish our opinion or editorial if we send it to them. We can write our success story and we can call out our elected officials.

When a city council makes a bad decision let them know. The "minutes", of the previous meeting and the scheduled decision-making for future meetings are published.

I just have my story, how it affects me, my family, and my community. There are a lot of people, even here that will help.

 

[Strings]

Gonna take a small risk here

Want to learn how to fight this battle? Talk to some of the lobbyist folks at the NRA.

I was an amateur lobbyist for concealed carry here in WI for years. The way to win is education: talk to people, counter lies and misinformation whenever you run across it. Hit EVERY poll that you find. Write op-ed pieces (I'll be doing that today). NEVER let up the pressure: you want vape bans to be a political third rail

Last point: accept NO compromise that involves "we just want you to give up a lil bit" when there's no offer of something else in exchange. That's one mistake the NRA has made over the years

 

[Kent C]

@Strings

 

[DC2]

Gonna take a small risk here

Want to learn how to fight this battle? Talk to some of the lobbyist folks at the NRA.

I was an amateur lobbyist for concealed carry here in WI for years. The way to win is education: talk to people, counter lies and misinformation whenever you run across it. Hit EVERY poll that you find. Write op-ed pieces (I'll be doing that today). NEVER let up the pressure: you want vape bans to be a political third rail

Last point: accept NO compromise that involves "we just want you to give up a lil bit" when there's no offer of something else in exchange. That's one mistake the NRA has made over the years

Couldn't agree more.

But the "compromise" folks want to try a different tack.
I hope we don't start butting heads when the rubber starts to meet the road.
:shrug:

 

[Strings]

Look at what the gunnies have dealt with, playing the compromise game. It's not a fair game.

A friend of mine probably explained it better than I will: http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-repost.html

Basic concept: it isn't compromise if one side is giving things up, with nothing in return. And what, exactly, does the anti vaping crowd have to offer us in a compromise?

 

[DrMA]

<snip>And what, exactly, does the anti vaping crowd have to offer us in a compromise?

They offer nothing but robbery and death, punctuated by snide remarks and bullying. There can be no negotiation with the "quit or die" crowd. We have quit doing the dying for their gain. Now I give them a choice of my own: move over or be run over!