What is the theory behind coil builds?

[supermarket]

I'm coming at this from a scientific/engineering point of view. What factors in coil design affect flavor, and vapor amount/thickness?

For instance, why do we do coils? Why not wrap the wire in a circular way, like a grill, and place the cotton on top or bottom? A stove top coil.....for more surface area. I was thinking about this a couple weeks ago, and people told me it just wouldn't work. Well, surprise surprise, riptrippers JUST made a video with a build like this a few days ago....and....it WORKED, and worked WELL.

This got me REALLY thinking. Are we at the beginning phases of understanding what is best as far as coil design/vaporizer design? Perhaps we haven't even come to close to maximum efficiency yet.


Can someone explain me to me more theory on this? Restrictions? etc.

Why do coils, (wrap the wire around the cotton) instead of stove top type builds? People told me it couldn't be done.....and now I find out it can. In fact, only a few years ago , if that, I was told that you should never have your wraps touch.....then we get micro coils....and it all touches.

It is really hard to explain here what I'm seeking/searching for....but I'm trying to understand from a scientific/engineering perspective (as I mentioned) the theory behind building coils.

 

[Rickajho]

Questions just gave me a headache. Bump.

 

[Lessifer]

I'm not sure about all of the science, but from a practical stand point, every variable has an effect.

I saw a stovetop coil about a year ago, and it worked, but was a PITA to build, and didn't work extremely well in the RBA's that were available at the time. We're all definitely still learning.

Most of my experience is with micro coils, and changing wire gauge, number of wraps, internal diameter, coil placement in relation to airflow, wick material, wick density, wick length, coil height, air hole size and probably more variables I can't even think of, all have noticeable effects on the vape. The suggested build for the strata rda looks really odd to people, but I think it was called a "spin-e" coil about a year ago. We're all pioneers, and coil building is art and ingenuity. That's what makes it fun

 

[rurwin]

There are a few mechanical considerations. For example it must be self-supporting, there should be no wires in contact that have a significant voltage between them, and, of course, it must be buildable.

ETA: Another: the wires have to come out close to the terminals; long leads with no wick are hot spots.

 

[SLIPPY_EEL]

double post argh..... sorry

 

[SLIPPY_EEL]

here is some evolution

 

[Rat2chat2]

I know you are asking all real good questions but honestly I've never thought about it until today. Guess I'm more of a "monkey see, monkey do" kinda gal. I look forward to reading the responses though, I may learn something else today.

 

[supermarket]

Thanks for the responses guys.

I guess we really ARE pioneers.....which makes this whole vaping and rebuilding thing all the more interesting!

I can't believe you saw a stove top coil a year ago! That is nuts...I had no idea! the idea randomly popped into my head at work a few weeks back, and I've never heard of it, so when I saw the video by rip trippers, I was amazed.

After making this thread.....it dawned on me why coils are used in the first place.....instead of stove top builds. Originally, we used silica wick in ecigs....so it only makes sense that "coils" were used.....because it is a simple design to wrap the kanthal wire around the wick.

Now, since we use cotton, we can explore other options, like stove top builds....so now it makes sense.

I honestly believe a year from now, we will look back at things like the kayfun, and patriot/magma/tridents, etc and consider them archaic vaping technology

 

[Lessifer]

Definitely, I love the innovation that happens here on ECF and in the vaping world in general. I'm not a fan of rip, but he definitely pushes limits.

Cotton as a wick has opened things up quite a bit, you can now focus on your wire, and the wick can be shaped to it. In fact, I got bored and made a "toaster" coil, think stove top but rectangular. I'm not taking pics because it's not worth repeating, though it did "work."

 

[edyle]

I'm coming at this from a scientific/engineering point of view. What factors in coil design affect flavor, and vapor amount/thickness?
For instance, why do we do COILS? Why not wrap the wire in a circular way, like a grill, and place the cotton on top or bottom? A stove top coil.....for more surface area. I was thinking about this a couple weeks ago, and people told me it just wouldn't work. Well, surprise surprise, riptrippers JUST made a video with a build like this a few days ago....and....it WORKED, and worked WELL.
This got me REALLY thinking. Are we at the beginning phases of understanding what is best as far as coil design/vaporizer design? Perhaps we haven't even come to close to maximum efficiency yet.
Can someone explain me to me more theory on this? Restrictions? etc.
Why do coils, (wrap the wire around the cotton) instead of stove top type builds? People told me it couldn't be done.....and now I find out it can. In fact, only a few years ago , if that, I was told that you should never have your wraps touch.....then we get micro coils....and it all touches.
It is really hard to explain here what I'm seeking/searching for....but I'm trying to understand from a scientific/engineering perspective (as I mentioned) the theory behind building coils.

Yes, the real reason for wraping it as a coil is really just simplicity.
The wick is generally a long string type thing and then you want alot of surface area on metal to contact the wick so you wrap the resistance wire onto the string type wick.

I'd like to see a tank without a wick and instead just a flat mesh above the liquid;
you splash the liquid on the mesh with a twiddle of the finger then you fire the power and the mesh sizzles the liquid to produce the vapor;

a close design is the .. there's a tank called bauman or something which is designed kind of like the vnano, a carto type design but instead of polyfill it uses mesh on the inside tube; all that mesh means potentially more hot metal surface area to vaporise liquid.

The trouble of course is to separate the hot metal electrically from the circuitry; a good material to find is something that conducts heat very well but not conduct electricity. If that material can be found they presto! we encase the heating element inside that.

 

[edyle]

Thanks for the responses guys.

I guess we really ARE pioneers.....which makes this whole vaping and rebuilding thing all the more interesting!

I can't believe you saw a stove top coil a year ago! That is nuts...I had no idea! the idea randomly popped into my head at work a few weeks back, and I've never heard of it, so when I saw the video by rip trippers, I was amazed.

After making this thread.....it dawned on me why coils are used in the first place.....instead of stove top builds. Originally, we used silica wick in ecigs....so it only makes sense that "coils" were used.....because it is a simple design to wrap the kanthal wire around the wick.

Now, since we use cotton, we can explore other options, like stove top builds....so now it makes sense.

I honestly believe a year from now, we will look back at things like the kayfun, and patriot/magma/tridents, etc and consider them archaic vaping technology

I saw an interesting coil a couple months ago- think it was one of rips videos - where he wrapped like 28ga onto a 28ga wire - made a long enough length of wrapped 28ga; then took that off, and wrapped a coil using the long wrapped coil; yowza! So much surface area packed into a coil

 

[SLIPPY_EEL]

do you mean a Clapton coil or a Clapton without the centre wire?

A 'coiled-wire coil' I don't really see any gain from that, besides you'd probably need cotton in a spray can form as a foam to spray coat all in between the coils

I saw an interesting coil a couple months ago- think it was one of rips videos - where he wrapped like 28ga onto a 28ga wire - made a long enough length of wrapped 28ga; then took that off, and wrapped a coil using the long wrapped coil; yowza! So much surface area packed into a coil

 

[Lessifer]

So let's do some of the theory.

I'll talk a bit from the micro coil perspective, since that's what I'm most familiar with.

First we have shape, it's a tightly spaced coil design with a small internal diameter. The benefits of this shape are shared heat from touching wraps(side by side), as well as, shared heat across the wick(internal diameter). There's a reason why we(here at ECF) define a micro as being no more than 1/16th ID, any larger than that and you lose the secondary heat sharing through the wick. When you go too small(into nano territory), you either lose the ability to wick through the coil, or the inside of the coil actually gets too hot to sustain a wick, or both.

Wick material. I prefer cotton, because I can taste silica and ss, and while I can taste cotton initially that dissipates quickly and is less unpleasant to me. There are other reasons why cotton is a preferred wick in a micro coil as well. Silica and SS(mesh or rope) can wick as quickly as, or even quicker than, cotton but they don't seem to actually hold as much juice in the coil area. Juice capacity, wicking speed, and the ability to form cotton to whatever shape you want make it tough to beat. Of course, until you learn to taste a wick that is about to be dry, you run the risk of singeing your cotton on a dry hit.

Airflow. There are so many variables to airflow.... First there's amount, the hotter the coil(low resistance, high watt/amp) the more airflow you need. Then there's distance, I'm not sure exactly how this affects the vape for everyone, but I prefer my coils as close to the air hole as possible, I feel I don't have to work as hard to get good flow and vapor production this way. Also important, directionality. Airflow coming from under a coil(a high placed coil) tends to give more throat hit, while air flowing over the coil gives less throat hit and more bass notes, though this applies more to side airflow coils than bottom airflow. Other variants would be airflow hitting a coil from the side, or flowing along the coil, coil placed parallel to vs perpendicular to the air hole.

 

[edyle]

do you mean a Clapton coil or a Clapton without the centre wire?

A 'coiled-wire coil' I don't really see any gain from that, besides you'd probably need cotton in a spray can form as a foam to spray coat all in between the coils

Clapton; yes that was it.

Not sure if the center wire was left inside the coil, but I'd be curious how it would perform without a center wire; but maybe from a practical standpoint the center wire would be necessary just to wrap the coil.

 

[SLIPPY_EEL]

well... actually.. it is possible... I been watching jewellery making vid's all morning for a bit of inspiration on a new build or idea and I did see a vid that did that... I can try find it if you like?? ... the only reason I didn't pull it up earlier and try it is because of wicking the thing...

Clapton; yes that was it.

Not sure if the center wire was left inside the coil, but I'd be curious how it would perform without a center wire; but maybe from a practical standpoint the center wire would be necessary just to wrap the coil.

 

[deedupdex]

I'm coming at this from a scientific/engineering point of view. What factors in coil design affect flavor, and vapor amount/thickness?

For instance, why do we do COILS? Why not wrap the wire in a circular way, like a grill, and place the cotton on top or bottom? A stove top coil.....for more surface area. I was thinking about this a couple weeks ago, and people told me it just wouldn't work. Well, surprise surprise, riptrippers JUST made a video with a build like this a few days ago....and....it WORKED, and worked WELL.

This got me REALLY thinking. Are we at the beginning phases of understanding what is best as far as coil design/vaporizer design? Perhaps we haven't even come to close to maximum efficiency yet.


Can someone explain me to me more theory on this? Restrictions? etc.

Why do coils, (wrap the wire around the cotton) instead of stove top type builds? People told me it couldn't be done.....and now I find out it can. In fact, only a few years ago , if that, I was told that you should never have your wraps touch.....then we get micro coils....and it all touches.

It is really hard to explain here what I'm seeking/searching for....but I'm trying to understand from a scientific/engineering perspective (as I mentioned) the theory behind building coils.

That stove top coil was made back in Nov by a guy name Karlo. It was named electric stove. Check out my builds and let me know if you have any questions about them. You might find them amusing. Just visit my sig brotha!

 

[supermarket]

So let's do some of the theory.

I'll talk a bit from the micro coil perspective, since that's what I'm most familiar with.

First we have shape, it's a tightly spaced coil design with a small internal diameter. The benefits of this shape are shared heat from touching wraps(side by side), as well as, shared heat across the wick(internal diameter). There's a reason why we(here at ECF) define a micro as being no more than 1/16th ID, any larger than that and you lose the secondary heat sharing through the wick. When you go too small(into nano territory), you either lose the ability to wick through the coil, or the inside of the coil actually gets too hot to sustain a wick, or both.

Wick material. I prefer cotton, because I can taste silica and ss, and while I can taste cotton initially that dissipates quickly and is less unpleasant to me. There are other reasons why cotton is a preferred wick in a micro coil as well. Silica and SS(mesh or rope) can wick as quickly as, or even quicker than, cotton but they don't seem to actually hold as much juice in the coil area. Juice capacity, wicking speed, and the ability to form cotton to whatever shape you want make it tough to beat. Of course, until you learn to taste a wick that is about to be dry, you run the risk of singeing your cotton on a dry hit.

Airflow. There are so many variables to airflow.... First there's amount, the hotter the coil(low resistance, high watt/amp) the more airflow you need. Then there's distance, I'm not sure exactly how this affects the vape for everyone, but I prefer my coils as close to the air hole as possible, I feel I don't have to work as hard to get good flow and vapor production this way. Also important, directionality. Airflow coming from under a coil(a high placed coil) tends to give more throat hit, while air flowing over the coil gives less throat hit and more bass notes, though this applies more to side airflow coils than bottom airflow. Other variants would be airflow hitting a coil from the side, or flowing along the coil, coil placed parallel to vs perpendicular to the air hole.

Thank you! This post was very educational...gave me information I didn't have, and was exactly what I was looking for.

It is great to hear from those who have played extensively with various coils, and the various variables affecting throat hit, flavor, and density.


Can someone now tell me what the benefit of a macro coil is?

 

[supermarket]

That stove top coil was made back in Nov by a guy name Karlo. It was named electric stove. Check out my builds and let me know if you have any questions about them. You might find them amusing. Just visit my sig brotha!

Very nice!

Out of all those crazy builds you've done, and all your experience with coils.....can you give some practical info? What builds do you find are the best all around? What is your personal preference?