I couldn't agree more, Leothwyn. Heck, I don't even see an ethical problem if my florist doesn't grow her own flowers, as long as she does her own arrangments.
Without naming names - ever suspect some vendors are selling straight Flavor Apprentice and LorAnn
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I think everybody who does DIY already can kinda tell this.
HOWEVER, this doesn't bother me once I put it into perspective.
I can cut and color my own hair, but I find it a great bother, and time consuming, so I let somebody else do it.
Many customers want the convenience of purchasing juice ....they don't want to mix juice. As long as the vendor isn't charging outrageous prices, I see simple one-flavor or 2-flavor juice as a viable marketable item, they are making an honest living, and there are many vendors in this category who do very well with it, and are pleasing their customers.
People want to vape and get their nic fix with something reasonably pleasant. My own DIY qualifies along those lines. I am suprrised when I share and people say "oh that tastes exactly like such-and-such" and they name a vendor juice. That kinda makes me happy, at least I know my DIY isn't total swill.
One issue I can see is when it comes to trying a bunch of different vendors who pull from these flavorings and you waste time and money
you go to vendor #1 and order a vanilla flavor, don't like it and move onto vendors #2-5, however 2 of those vendors use the same vanilla flavoring
from the same company vendor #1 sources there's from.
That could get a little frustrating. Tastes being subjective and all, it is nice to see companies saying "We use flavoring from LorAnn/FlavorWest/whatever company" because if you love those companies, great! but if you already know you've tried many of those flavorings from other vendors who source from the same flavor company, then it helps mark eLiquid companies off the to-try list.
But then you get into the discussion of DIY vs. ready-made eLiquid, with one having more start-up costs and the other having more costs over time.
you go to vendor #1 and order a vanilla flavor, don't like it and move onto vendors #2-5, however 2 of those vendors use the same vanilla flavoring
from the same company vendor #1 sources there's from.
That could get a little frustrating. Tastes being subjective and all, it is nice to see companies saying "We use flavoring from LorAnn/FlavorWest/whatever company" because if you love those companies, great! but if you already know you've tried many of those flavorings from other vendors who source from the same flavor company, then it helps mark eLiquid companies off the to-try list.
But then you get into the discussion of DIY vs. ready-made eLiquid, with one having more start-up costs and the other having more costs over time.
Well, basically, you are saying that vapers want vendors to provide as much information about their juice as possible, without giving away "trade secrets." And you make a very good point.
The reason many people turn to their own DIY is specifically they want to KNOW what is going into their juice. Not everyone DIYs to save money---- some do it for safety, hygiene and/or exactly the reasons you just mentioned.
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A link and a thread crossed my mind reading the thread. You may or may not find them interesting:
e-Liquid Database | e-liquid suppliers and manufacturers
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...american-made-eliquid-flavorings-chinese.html
e-Liquid Database | e-liquid suppliers and manufacturers
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...american-made-eliquid-flavorings-chinese.html
I don't see any problem with vendors getting flavorings from other suppliers. That's how most companies get "parts" for any product... food, machines, etc. I do think they should credit the flavor vendors somewhere out of courtesy. I get what some people are saying about vendors who take a straight flavor from another vendor and market it as their own special creatation. That is wrong.
when you go to a 5-star restaurant, do you think the chef is growing and using his own spices? Nope. I never thought or expected juice vendors to create their own extracts. It's all about mixing. They are saving you the time and trouble of mixing your own.
I have no problem with vendors who mix their juice own juice from standard off the shelf flavorings.
I do mind the ones that take dekang or some other chinese liquid and just slap their own label on it.
I do mind the ones that take dekang or some other chinese liquid and just slap their own label on it.
No, I don't expect that all high-end chefs will be growing and using his/her own spices (though the chefs I worked under were); but if they say something like, "these are all locally sourced ingredients," well, they better be. I just expect that when a vendors says one thing, they'll actually be doing that. Don't say, "we make our own extracts," only to be using commercial extracts or just outsourced extracts. That's just dishonesty; but unfortunately it's commonplace.
I too thought it was pretty common knowledge that some (most?) vendors are using the same flavorings. Some don't even change the name. Single and double flavor liquids are the real reason I got into DIY in the first place. Special complex flavors are the reason I still buy from certain vendors even though I can make my own.
There were a couple times that I felt sort of cheated by a vendor, saying it was a super spectacular blahblahblah juice when it really wasn't anything more than ordinary, and in one memorable occasion, downright disgusting. I do believe there are artisan juice mixologists out there for sure, really working the NETs and flavors.
There were a couple times that I felt sort of cheated by a vendor, saying it was a super spectacular blahblahblah juice when it really wasn't anything more than ordinary, and in one memorable occasion, downright disgusting. I do believe there are artisan juice mixologists out there for sure, really working the NETs and flavors.
I say, if you like Bobas, buy Bobas. Who cares what it's made from. Does it do the trick for ya? Good. If not, move on to the next one...
I DIY. I do it for the same reasons e-liquid vendors do it... to come up with that "WOW" flavor. I'd image these same vendors cook just like I do, too, with a little bit of this and a little bit of that. When that "WOW" flavor is created, hopefully I've written the recipe down. I could probably sell that recipe. Some vendors sell ready-made products using the "WOW" recipe they've written down.
Now, let's look at the spectrum of flavorings that one must purchase to provide the mixes that alot of vapers make and/or purchase. It's gotta be expensive. If I were to purchase DIY-sized commodities to be able to mix non-stop for weeks on end, do you know how much that would cost? I don't want to imagine. I know the flavors that cater to my taste and that's not cheap, by itself. Do you fathom the expense incurred for mixing, tossing, mixing, tossing, mixng tossing until you create a marketable flavor?
Now, riddle me this, hypothetically, if I'm so busy concocting a "WOW" flavor, how am I to create base flavors out of thin air? Do you realize the laboratory science that goes into creating a single Lorann flavor? E-liquid vendors aren't creating their own base flavors, unless we're talking NET. I extract my own tobacco base. I buy pre-made base flavors. I wouldn't have the foggiest clue how to create a liquid flavor, myself. I doubt a place called "Mom n Pop" has ever created their own base flavor, unless they use NET. * nothing against Mom n Pop... just used an example.
I DIY. I do it for the same reasons e-liquid vendors do it... to come up with that "WOW" flavor. I'd image these same vendors cook just like I do, too, with a little bit of this and a little bit of that. When that "WOW" flavor is created, hopefully I've written the recipe down. I could probably sell that recipe. Some vendors sell ready-made products using the "WOW" recipe they've written down.
Now, let's look at the spectrum of flavorings that one must purchase to provide the mixes that alot of vapers make and/or purchase. It's gotta be expensive. If I were to purchase DIY-sized commodities to be able to mix non-stop for weeks on end, do you know how much that would cost? I don't want to imagine. I know the flavors that cater to my taste and that's not cheap, by itself. Do you fathom the expense incurred for mixing, tossing, mixing, tossing, mixng tossing until you create a marketable flavor?
Now, riddle me this, hypothetically, if I'm so busy concocting a "WOW" flavor, how am I to create base flavors out of thin air? Do you realize the laboratory science that goes into creating a single Lorann flavor? E-liquid vendors aren't creating their own base flavors, unless we're talking NET. I extract my own tobacco base. I buy pre-made base flavors. I wouldn't have the foggiest clue how to create a liquid flavor, myself. I doubt a place called "Mom n Pop" has ever created their own base flavor, unless they use NET. * nothing against Mom n Pop... just used an example.
The cost of distilling a flavor would far outweigh the financial gain since most all flavors have already been created and are readily available .. the combination of those flavors is what creates the distinction and if you've ever done DIY, you know it's not a slam dunk ..
We have vendors that claim they mix their own liquid yet get it from China .. we have vendors that sell nic solution claiming it's made in the USA yet I can't find a single USA based nicotine commercial extractor other than pesticide .. now that's a question I'd like some info on ..
We have vendors that claim they mix their own liquid yet get it from China .. we have vendors that sell nic solution claiming it's made in the USA yet I can't find a single USA based nicotine commercial extractor other than pesticide .. now that's a question I'd like some info on ..
I dont think there is any problem with having "some" products from China. Especially the nicotine extract comes from China or India. The part that is important in my opinion is having the nic extract mixed in a base of PG or VG done here in USA and have the liquid USP approved. When you obtain that certification i think that you can rest assured that the nic that your using is certified and best quality.
Extracting nicotine is about labor, and the cost in US are way to big to have the extraction made here.
Just my 2 cents..
My point is claiming it is Made in the USA .. at best, it should be "Mixed in the USA" and even that is misleading ..
What prompted my original rant (which was reposted in the thread I linked to 
) was people adamantly stating they never, and will never, use ingredients from China.
) was people adamantly stating they never, and will never, use ingredients from China.
Oi. This makes me very sad.
I do know that many/most of the cheaper US vendors are just mixing up various recipes of Loranns/TPA/FlavourArt etc.; that's how I discovered that I really cannot tolerate most of those flavorings!
OTOH, I tend to "bond" with the vendors whose juices I do enjoy, and most of those claim to use "their own" flavorings. I would positively hate to be deceived about that!!
I can understand the feelings about deception, EleanorR, but have trouble understanding why any vendor would bother making the claim. If my chef claims to raise his own carrots, he darn well better be raising his own carrots. If he buys them and does his own preparation, well, so what.
Thought-provoking replies all around (and some great links to related threads). I asked in ignorance as I'm new to this and wanted perspective. Having read the feedback here, this is where I'm at for the time being:
-Marketing "made in USA" liquids is problematic if that simply means "mixed in the states with Chinese ingredients."
-Simply serving up flavors straight from the TPA bottle isn't necessarily bad, but it isn't all too exciting or likely to win my prolonged business.
-The rare outlet that actually creates their own flavoring is worth a try in my book.
-Marketing "made in USA" liquids is problematic if that simply means "mixed in the states with Chinese ingredients."
-Simply serving up flavors straight from the TPA bottle isn't necessarily bad, but it isn't all too exciting or likely to win my prolonged business.
-The rare outlet that actually creates their own flavoring is worth a try in my book.
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