WTA goodness / Canadian sources, aside from GRBC ?

[chagrin]

Ok .. so I've been vaping for about a year, but never stopped smoking for more than a week, maybe most of a month and still smoke 0 cigarettes for a few days, then 1-4 once in a while and WAY too many if alcohol and smoking friends are involved. Every few months I get frustrated not finding the pv combination I like or an ADV and go back to smoking for a bit.


So I've just read about WTA a bit ago and skimmed a lot of info on the ECF and watched some reviews on youtube. VaporChase as well as other well known American reviewers all seem to not notice much difference, however from what I know they have all been exclusively vaping for a bit. What I miss about smoking is the ups and down .. I don't get that buzz - I want to say I used to think I felt it around my neocortex to sound smart. Now vaping kills the nicotine cravings, but there aren't the highs and the lows and there isn't that hit for me .. plus, honestly sometimes I think I miss the nasty taste. So I ordered TV Tobacco from GRBC and after a couple of days I notice this is a pretty strong tabacco flavour, I'd say an earthy, almost cigar flavour and I "think" I'm feeling a similar buzz. The throat hit is different and leaves a lingering .. almost "bad" tobacco taste in my throat, that I'm really liking in an odd way. I'm thinking I might need WTA or at least try it for a while, maybe for a morning vape or while drinking alcohol. I might also try what others have suggested, in altering nic levels, juice flavours and voltage for morning and with alcohol.


My questions are;

What are your experiences with WTA ? Is GRBC the only Canadian vendor with it ? I have found aromaejuice and vapelicious (currently down) in the states.

Can I just order WTA from aromaejuice and mix it with other juices ?

What do you guys do for the morning and with alcohol ? I'm really having a hard time in with that in social situations, because the throat hit seems to disappear and .. well cigarettes are easily had.

Thanks

 

[kingcobra]

I both vaped and smoked for 14 months and I was never able to quit, and I now know why it was so challenging. When I smoked, I got the whole experience not just the nicotine, and so adding vaping to that allowed me to cut my smoking in half, but no more. When I would go 3 hours or more without a cigarette, I'd be feeling crappy and having a smoke cured that.

So I told myself if I ever quit then it would need to be fairly easy, without a lot of suffering. Well that day never came, and one day I just woke up and decided that I would push myself a lot more to see if I could quit. Well I found out that vaping alone was awful and it wasn't at all like smoking. Instead of the calming effect I'd get from smoking, vaping alone made me even more keyed up.

So I definitely needed something. I had heard of snus and went around to the tobacco stores in town and no one had ever heard of it. You could order it from Sweden but who knows how long that would take. I also heard of WTA and that sounded like it might work too.

So there were two sites, one site was down at the time and wasn't going to be back up again, and the other one was Aroma, but they didn't ship to Canada. So I got a hold of Jerry, the owner, and convinced him to ship me some anyway. He provided me with great service and 10 days later my WTA was here. I managed to hang on and not start smoking again while waiting for it, I told myself well let's try this first, but it was safe to say that I wasn't doing very well.

So I tried the WTA, and ever since then I haven't wanted anything else. So Jerry also said that since my order went through no problem he'd ship to other Canadians who wanted it, so I told the people on here. I now mix in 1/3 WTA juice with 2/3 regular juice and the combination is fantastic.

Here's what WTA does. Regular juice just contains nicotine which is a stimulant. For some people that just doesn't completely satisfy you. For me it doesn't even come close. I had no desire to go through life wanting to smoke again. If I was going to quit I wanted to feel completely satisfied with vaping.

So WTA provides other alkaloids, the stuff that relaxes you. If you vape it straight it's too relaxing in fact. If you mix it with regular juice then you can find the right mix for you.

I'd highly recommend that everyone try mixing WTA in their juice, if for nothing else than to see what you are missing. It's more expensive but remember you aren't vaping this full time or at least you shouldn't be, so it doesn't really cost all that more. For a lot of people though, regular juice is just another nic replacement therapy and to be honest they don't work that well, and a lot of vapers who have quit will tell you that they aren't as satisfied as they were when they smoked. That's because they haven't tried this.

 

[ChellyNelly]

I'm on the opposite side of the fence, I think that you should only try WTA as a last resort. It's just more crap for your system to get addicted to and if you don't need it then why would you try it? I don't advise people to try it just for the sake of trying it.

I'm not as satisfied with vaping than I was with smoking, but I've just resigned myself to the fact that it's not supposed to be. A lot of it is in your head and if you can conquer that then you'll be golden. Of course, that isn't entirely practical for everyone. I'd definitely suggest you try WTA because you are having so much trouble, it could help you considerably (or it could do nothing, but it's worth trying at a point such as this).

GRBC is the only Canadian vendor with WTA juice. Vapealicious is supposed to be re-opening, he keeps saying so, but I don't know when. So really your only other option is Aroma. I've heard some good and some bad, but you ought to take the plunge and evaluate it for yourself -- could be just what you need

 

[RebeccaX]

I'm not as satisfied with vaping than I was with smoking, but I've just resigned myself to the fact that it's not supposed to be. A lot of it is in your head and if you can conquer that then you'll be golden.

I completely agree. I have good days and bad since I quit analogs. Some nights I dream I'm smoking analogs and wake up disappointed in myself and then I'm so happy when I realize it was just a dream. My biggest test since I quit is coming up next weekend. I'm getting together with friends I haven't seen since last year and they all chain smoke analogs. The house gets so filled with smoke you can barely see across the room! I know I just have to remember it's all in my head, keep vaping and try to get through it but I'm still scared that I'll be tempted to smoke an analog!

To the topic at hand though; I have an acquaintance at work who quit smoking the same day I did (March 1st, the Driven to Quit Challenge) and recently received some WTA from the States. I don't think he was too impressed: "They seem light on the nic (@ 12mg) but they are not bad. Good flavor, but not mind blowing, as I was lead to believe." He said he was going to bring a small sample over for me to try. I wasn't going to bother with it but it might just be exactly what I need next weekend to get me through!

 

[chagrin]

Thanks guys.

kingcobra - Can I ask what you're mixing ? I found TV Tobacco a bit too much and started mixing it with mlv's Canada blend or Prairie Blend from GRBC. I thought aromaejuice had an unflavoured juice with WTA, but I don't see one. Have you tried GRBC's WTA juice ? I only see TV Tobacco though, just sent them an email asking. But @ $14.99, for 30 ml compared to $12 for 10 ml it's definitely the cheaper one with more nic options.

EDIT: Just saw your post in another thread that GRBC isn't WTA, now I'll have to try Aroma's.

ChellyNelly - I kind of agree with you, I've read that you said similar things in other posts and it makes sense. I don't want another thing I need and to be dependent on, plus one or two vendors I have to order from. I'm going to continue the trial for a bit and then at some point slowly try to cut out the WTA.

RebeccaX - I know it's hard to do, but have you thought about asking your friend if they won't smoke in your place ? That sounds like it would be pretty bad for you to be around. Aroma has limited options with 12 and 24 mg, GRBC has more nic options, but I think they only have the one juice.

Well .. so far I "think" this is helping, but it has only been a few days. I'm keeping an open mind and willing to admit it's just psychosomatic or that the stronger tobacco juice is making a difference.

 

[smokum]

Ya, I see Aroma's WTA (plain) is showing 'not available', and I'm interested in giving it a try with my long ongoing struggles getting off the stinkies.

I shot them an inquiry regarding stock via their contact form on their site and await a response........

 

[chagrin]

Ya, I see Aroma's WTA (plain) is showing 'not available', and I'm interested in giving it a try with my long ongoing struggles getting off the stinkies.

I shot them an inquiry regarding stock via their contact form on their site and await a response........

I saw that this morning and did the same thing, I'll post if I hear back. Thanks to kingcobra and Daniel from GRBC, I guess TV Tobacco isn't really WTA - I just wasn't paying enough attention, but I am still interested in it.

I've been talking to jughead's lately too and brought up WTA. Apparently he's considered getting WTA and may in the future, but hasn't because it can be addictive, if there were enough interest I'm sure he would. He's now got me interested in some of their other DIY additives though.

Gotta love some of these Canadian vendors.

 

[joey.r]

yeah they are great... maybe he can have the Unflavored WTA Concentrate for people who need it when they go threw the crave stages ,,, might be a good idea..that way we add it when we need it and all the other times we just enjoy there great juices frrom them ..mmmmmmm

 

[jbglenn]

yeah they are great... maybe he can have the Unflavored WTA Concentrate for people who need it when they go threw the crave stages ,,, might be a good idea..that way we add it when we need it and all the other times we just enjoy there great juices frrom them ..mmmmmmm

A WTA concentrate from jugs would be awesome. I'm on the hunt as its a last resort for my wife. She just can't seem to kick the cigs.

 

[kingcobra]

I'd love to see some real WTA juice up here in Canada but there isn't any as of yet. It's pretty involved to make and you need a dedicated lab and I'm not sure we'll ever see this made up here. There's only 2 places in the world that make it.

The concentrate is hard to get. It only goes up for sale every now and then and is gone within hours. However as I've said the stock WTA juice can be mixed. You can mix it with anything really, although if you are conservative mixing tobacco juice with tobacco juice would be a can't go wrong deal.

To those who are happy feeling less good vaping: You are entitled to that if that's what you really want. Having experienced both WTA and regular juice I'd go as far as to say regular juice is bogus and does a pretty poor job replacing analogs. However if you are satisfied with that then it is your life. Those who are both less than satisfied and are also curious about what they may be missing may hold a different view.

What does bug me is people saying that this should be a "last resort" and other such nonsense when we're just talking additional substances similar to nicotine, other alkaloids in fact, and they think this is somehow fundamentally different than regular vaping. What I can tell you for sure is that it definitely is a lot less harmful than smoking which I was going back to if I didn't get this. WTA got me off smoking for good, and that's good enough for me.

 

[kingcobra]

I checked out this juice that some people are calling WTA on the forum here and here's what the website says:

A tobacco alkaloid composition extracted from a maceration of Virginia, Burley, and Oriental tobacco leaves. From none other than Tasty Vapor®.

So it's a maceration which isn't the same thing as the WTA extractions that Aroma sells. There's quite a bit written on the difference between the two and no one is claiming they are the same thing. So people can get confused about this, although given a choice between macerated tobacco and regular nicotine only juice, the macerated juice might be a bit better but in the same way as near beer would be better then a coke if you wanted beer, but nowhere near as good as an actual beer

 

[farmer_bric]

To those who are happy feeling less good vaping: You are entitled to that if that's what you really want. Having experienced both WTA and regular juice I'd go as far as to say regular juice is bogus and does a pretty poor job replacing analogs. However if you are satisfied with that then it is your life. Those who are both less than satisfied and are also curious about what they may be missing may hold a different view.

What does bug me is people saying that this should be a "last resort" and other such nonsense when we're just talking additional substances similar to nicotine, other alkaloids in fact, and they think this is somehow fundamentally different than regular vaping. What I can tell you for sure is that it definitely is a lot less harmful than smoking which I was going back to if I didn't get this. WTA got me off smoking for good, and that's good enough for me.

Feel for you snake, but I want the least possible sh$t in me. I don't think it is really fair to put down those that "are happy feeling less good vaping". Probably the sorriest day in my life was when I took up smoking.

I do miss the high of smoking, but so what..... I am trying to quit after all. Vaping has allowed me to completely stop for 8 months now. If you need WTA to help you kick the habit, go for it, but please don't diss others who aren't going along that path.

 

[Squish]

My concern is that I don't know enough about it, what exactly is in it and if those things are safe to inhale or not. I gotta say, I am tempted to try it for when I have explosive fits (happens all the time cause my husband smokes and thinks vaping is ridiculous, but that's a whole other fight lol), but I need more assurance that it won't hurt me more than just my reg juice

 

[The Doctor]

Been vaping for almost a year now.

Vaping is exponentially more satisfying than smoking. I don't even like tobacco juices that much, and will always favor a fruit or sweet juice over a tobacco (although some blends are nice).

Tried wta.. and yes, I did notice a bit of a buzz to it, which is enough to make me avoid it. I'll tell you why:

Tobacco does indeed contain more than one psychoactive constituent (nicotine), cigarettes have quite a few, but because they are generally pyrolytic (caused by burning) and not native to the plant (additives) we will just stick to the ones in tobacco... Actually, we'll just talk about the one that is likely in wta.

It is called acetaldehyde, and it is the result of heating the natural sugars in the tobacco leaf. In and of itself acetaldehyde is a minor carcinogen, but there is probably not enough of it in wta to be concerned with. Its also useful for making plastics, its part of what gives you a hangover, and its a naturally occurring alkaloid that is found in tons of stuff.

The "concern" (mine, anyway) is its interaction with nicotine. The two, when heated and inhaled form a chemical called "Harmane", (via interaction with the amino acid tryptophan) which is (among other things) a Monoamine Oxydase Inhibitor (MAO-I). MAOI's are potent antidepressants, which (in Laymans terms) increase the stimulation of the "feel good" centers of the brain. (actually, they prevent the neurotransmitter dopamine from being broken down, resulting in addiction or addict behavior)

Studies have shown that nicotine, by itself is not super addictive. However, when combined with acetaldehyde to form Harmane, the addictive potential of nicotine increases dramatically.

Is this what's happening with wta? I don't know for certain, but it seems likely. Its still better than smoking, so I consider it a personal call that the individual has to make. Saying that "wta is better than regular nicotine juice" is just silly though. Is it better for you? No. Does it taste better? Subjective. Does it elicit any desirable effect? Subjective again.

My goal was to stop smoking, I did that with regular e juice and a bloog. Goal met. Regular e juice does me fine now, and I vape more for the flavors and the appeasement of the oral fixation I got from smoking.

Why would I switch to something that is more like the substance that I struggled to quit for so many years?

Point is.. Any choice you make in regards to chemicals you are using should be an informed choice. Saying something is "better" without qualifying is, in a word, irresponsible. (not a flame, just a fact).

KNOWING IS HALF THE BATTLE. YO JOE.


Vaping since: a while
Cigarettes avoided: lots
Money saved: probably not
Devices: Yes
(insert crappy graphic and vendor logo here)

 

[Squish]

Thank you, good sir!

 

[kingcobra]

Well first of all I'm not looking to put down anyone, all I was saying is that some people choose to be happy just vaping nic and that's fine but that's not all of us.

To The Doctor, people have speculated that WTA may be more carcinogenic, and it very well may be, but it is unlikely that it would be to any meaningful degree. Swedish Snus which also has minor alkaloids has been shown to not be meaningfully carcinogenic and I really don't see any reason why minor alkaloids in general would be.

The goal here for many of us though is harm reduction, and for me there's no reason to think that vaping involves any serious harm at all, whether it contains minor alkaloids or not. This isn't just a matter of looking at harm reduction though and if it was, just plain quitting would be the goal for all of us. For many of us it is a matter of finding a satisfying substitute for smoking tobacco.

So to this end, it is reasonable that many of us wish to become more satisfied, and therefore we need to look at WTA in terms of its potential risks versus its benefits, and then decide accordingly. So you really need to look at the whole picture here.

You ask why you should consider switching to a substance more like something you've been trying to quit for many years? Well you may want to ask why you would want to use a substance at all. So perhaps you are satisfied with what you are doing and don't want to consider other options, and that's fine, it's your decision. Where the line gets crossed a bit is when people say that others shouldn't try out things like WTA because you, rightly or wrongly, don't think you should or don't feel comfortable with it.

Now I'm not saying that you are doing this but there are some people who preach this. I definitely need WTA, or something other than just regular nic juice, and I would choose smoking again over plain vaping. Fortunately I don't have to. Now from this people may say that WTA is to be seen as a necessary evil, but what we have to account for is that a lot of vapers vape because they enjoy nicotine and are willing to take on what by almost all accounts are only minor health risks versus smoking. So by the same token it is reasonable for someone to be willing to take on what are still minor health risks with WTA if this makes vaping even more enjoyable, as it does for many of us who use it.

You speak of making an "informed choice" but the information that we need is comparing what we are doing to smoking, and we don't really need much information at all to be informed enough to make that choice. Aside from that, the use of tobacco alkaloids has not given us any real cause to even pause here, in spite of the propensity for people to see monsters under the bed when there's really no good reason to believe that they are there

 

[The Doctor]

To The Doctor, people have speculated that WTA may be more carcinogenic, and it very well may be, but it is unlikely that it would be to any meaningful degree. Swedish Snus which also has minor alkaloids has been shown to not be meaningfully carcinogenic and I really don't see any reason why minor alkaloids in general would be.

I stated that it was likely not enough to warrant any concern. However, for clarity, nicotine isn't a carcinogen, so if wta is carcinogenic at all, it would be, by definition "more" carcinogenic.

The goal here for many of us though is harm reduction, and for me there's no reason to think that vaping involves any serious harm at all, whether it contains minor alkaloids or not. This isn't just a matter of looking at harm reduction though and if it was, just plain quitting would be the goal for all of us. For many of us it is a matter of finding a satisfying substitute for smoking tobacco.

I concur, it is about harm reduction first and foremost. In order to make educated decisions, one must first have all the potentials weighed, given the data available. That was the point of my post... Saying something is "better" and not expounding the reasons is negligent information sharing..

Quitting nicotine may well be the goal for some people, to this end, WTA could potentially be much WORSE than standard ejuice. For those that are looking for an augmented cigarette experience with no intent of quitting, it could be better. Again, my goal is only to offer an unbiased, factual account of what the potentials are with wta, not to sway anyone one way or the other.

So to this end, it is reasonable that many of us wish to become more satisfied, and therefore we need to look at WTA in terms of its potential risks versus its benefits, and then decide accordingly. So you really need to look at the whole picture here.

I believe I am looking at the whole picture, please note that I never said to avoid wta, just that I am going to.. And not in an extreme sense either. I may well buy some and have it on hand for certain situations... But I would not make it my all day vape for the reasons listed, as I would eventually like to quit nicotine almost entirely.

(note further that I only stated the potential for the alkaloid in question existing in wta, I am, at the time of this post unaware of any molecular constituent list for wta (although I would love to see one!). What I posited is a hypothesis based on my knowledge of neurochemical interaction, psychoactive drugs and tobacco).

You ask why you should consider switching to a substance more like something you've been trying to quit for many years? Well you may want to ask why you would want to use a substance at all. So perhaps you are satisfied with what you are doing and don't want to consider other options, and that's fine, it's your decision. Where the line gets crossed a bit is when people say that others shouldn't try out things like WTA because you, rightly or wrongly, don't think you should or don't feel comfortable with it.

Why I would want to use a substance at all? Hm. Benefit of the doubt here... I use nicotine because I foolishly became addicted to it when I was 14. I'm sure pretty much everyone who posts here has a similar story...at least, one would think.

Again, I have not and will not try to sway anyone towards or away from any substance they want to try, as long as it has the potential to help them, and not poison them. Wta is not likely to hurt anyone, and has potential to help some people quit analogs... What I will do, is give the people considering wta information that can allow them to make an informed choice, and not just say that it's "better" than standard ejuice. I love that we even have a choice!

Now I'm not saying that you are doing this but there are some people who preach this. I definitely need WTA, or something other than just regular nic juice, and I would choose smoking again over plain vaping. Fortunately I don't have to. Now from this people may say that WTA is to be seen as a necessary evil, but what we have to account for is that a lot of vapers vape because they enjoy nicotine and are willing to take on what by almost all accounts are only minor health risks versus smoking. So by the same token it is reasonable for someone to be willing to take on what are still minor health risks with WTA if this makes vaping even more enjoyable, as it does for many of us who use it.

People who demonize wta aren't seeing the big picture, I agree. I'm super happy that you found something that works and proud of you for not just hopping back on the one way train to cancerville.

You speak of making an "informed choice" but the information that we need is comparing what we are doing to smoking, and we don't really need much information at all to be informed enough to make that choice. Aside from that, the use of tobacco alkaloids has not given us any real cause to even pause here, in spite of the propensity for people to see monsters under the bed when there's really no good reason to believe that they are there

I disagree here: we need ALL the information possible in regards to smoking, nicotine, wta, vaping in general, etc. Smoking vs vaping (so far) appears to be a no-brainer. But that is not to say vaping is 100% safe either. What about diacetyl? Nicotine overdose/poisoning? Impurities in ejuice? Etc.

As my initial post stated, the alkaloid in question may well be enough to give people pause.. It is for me... There may or may not be monsters under the bed, the only way to tell is to look, and look closely. To not do so is to embrace ignorance and naivete. It's good to be optimistic, but it's great to be certain.

Heh... Schrodingers Monster.



Vaping since: a while
Cigarettes avoided: lots
Money saved: probably not
Devices: Yes
(insert crappy graphic and vendor logo here)

 

[joey.r]

thank to you both guys The Doctor and kingcobra for your thoughts...and the thing that i guess we all pick up here,, is you have a choice which is always good..but also i do agree that the more info.on wta on the whole would be fantastic and i guess that is were a lot of us are .

 

[kingcobra]

Thanks for sharing more of your thoughts here Doctor.

If nicotine isn't carcinogenic, and you're right it isn't, then it's very unlikely that other similar alkaloids are. The concern as far as carcinogens go have to do with the flavoring from what I understand, where there's at least some potential with some additives.

If your goal is to quit nicotine, then I agree that quitting WTA may be more difficult than quitting regular nicotine juice. I'm skeptical that it would be much more so though, although I guess it is possible. Regardless though, we need to keep in mind that for many vapers they are looking for a smoking substitute, in other words getting their fix in another form.

If people are indeed looking to quit vaping then they should be looking to wean themselves off vaping, not seek more potentially satisfying means.

I do realize that you just said that you are uncomfortable about using it, not that everyone should avoid it. The paragraph you quoted just referred to looking at the big picture, the costs and benefits of something as it relates so one's overall satisfaction. In other words, there's more to it obviously than just seeing how long we can kick around here. There are qualitative considerations as well.

Not everyone uses nicotine only because they have to. If so then vaping would simply be a cessation method and vapers would all be directing themselves to a plan to quit. As we know, this only constitutes a small percentage of vapers. Most are happy vaping and have no intention of quitting.

Personally, I enjoyed smoking and enjoy vaping even more, vaping WTA that is. I'm just speaking for myself as you are but we both have people on our sides of the fence.

As for the information that we need, more is better, but sometimes you just have to use your best judgement here. What a lot of people don't get when talking about WTA is that it isn't WTA versus regular nicotine juice, it's WTA versus smoking. So it would be simply fantastic for anyone to claim that people should avoid WTA and smoke instead, and I don't think anyone would even consider this ridiculous claim.

Now there's another side to this which I bring up in past posts but are worth mentioning again. Going back to the qualitative elements of nicotine usage, I still say that if WTA makes you feel so much better than regular juice, then it's not unreasonable at all to see this benefit as exceeding any additional health risks that WTA may incur.

Once again we know that there has been many studies done on Snus which also contains WTA and it's pretty benign. Nothing is going to be completely safe but we can say that it is at least reasonable to assume that WTA and nic juice are pretty similar risk wise, and whatever difference would still place WTA far from smoking as regular juice is assumed to be. I use the word assumed here since we aren't certain about what exact risks regular juice has, as you point out.

So thanks for your comments and we'll probably never agree here but perhaps this discussion is serving to bring us and others a little closer together

 

[kingcobra]

I wanted to add another post to talk about the reason why I came here in the first place. I got a message from someone letting me know that someone was trying to pass off macerated tobacco juice as WTA, which is patently incorrect. The two are very different. Maceration is mostly for flavor, where tobacco is soaked in a solution and components of the plant are derived, including nicotine. This is a very dirty process and you only get a very small amount of nicotine, and even more minute amounts of other aklaloids. So this is why I used the near beer example since near beer has a tiny bit of alcohol in it, but not enough for any real noticeable effect.

Real WTA extracts both the nicotine and alkaloids by a chemical process. I'm no chemist but when they tell me that soaking it isn't the same thing and they do know what they are talking about, then I do tend to believe them. The source of this information is the guy who could be considered the founder of WTA research, Dvap, who used to post a lot on this forum.

So if people think that they are getting WTA with juice that has merely been soaked in PG then that can turn people off to WTA and those of us who hold WTA in high regard would prefer people try out the real thing before coming to conclusions.