Your right Les. The cig guidance is still a draft. It's a game gov agencies play. As long as it's a draft, they can change it at will. Once it's been finalized and published it's harder to revise and add in their "this is what it really means" or "this is what we want today but tomorrow will be different" requirements.
Delay the FDA, Citizen Petition on Regulations.gov, what's the deal?
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Your right Les. The cig guidance is still a draft. It's a game gov agencies play. As long as it's a draft, they can change it at will. Once it's been finalized and published it's harder to revise and add in their "this is what it really means" or "this is what we want today but tomorrow will be different" requirements.
There is this idea in the vaping community that the FDA is being completely "unfair" to us, when in reality, they are treating us exactly the same as they are all other tobacco products. The only difference is that sweet grandfather deal that the cigarette companies got, which let them keep their products, and removed competition and the need for development.
And they did that because if they had tried to seriously impact cigarette sales back then, there would have been a public uproar.
There is a vast difference in the type of petition we are talking about. One is a legal maneuver that can end up in court that challenges the FDA's approach to vaping.
The other is a meaningless petition that has no legal weight.
They may use the same word petition, but the differences are vast. I am surprised you even got two venders to support Lessifer's petition (especially Provape). The other venders where correct in not supporting it.
Nicely said.I refrained from posting on this thread because of the reception we got from CASAA. It was inexcusably brutal and derogatory. However, anybody with more brass than I have, please participate in this. It'll take me a bit longer to suck it up and follow suit.
BTW, anybody remember the old CASAA recruiting threads on ECF? Heavy supporter here once I was shown the light. How about @Flavored 's heroic efforts? Way back when, we went from pathetic numbers to admirable.
CASAA was born on ECF, not sure they even post here anymore. Newer people likely don't even have a clue who they are. They used to have some excellent voices of reason on ECF. They moved to FB, a place I refuse to join. We're (ECF) not important to them anymore and that's been the case for some time.
Do sign up for CASAA, if nothing else, their CTAs are important, especially alerting you to local legislation in your area. It really is worth it. CASAA
I highly doubt CASAA's refusal to support the petition was inexcusably brutal and derogatory. It was very likely simply truthful.
So, in your expert opinion, what is the likelihood the FDA will agree to delay enforcement until it finalizes guidance that it has no intention of finalizing, as evidenced by the fact that after six years they have yet to finalize the cigarette guidance?
I am not sure what your point is. This is a legal maneuver and it would be silly not to take it. This type of petition is coded into law.
Are you trying to say it should not be done?
Delay the FDA – Comment on the Citizen Petition today! - CASAA
CFR - Code of Federal Regulations Title 21
I thought my question was pretty clear. What do you think the likelihood of success is?
I didn't say anything about not attempting it, in fact I said a few posts ago that I added my comments as well.
Since I make no claims on telling the future I will pass on that one.
We need that public uproar on our side. Not just vaper uproar. We need everyone who knows someone who will be affected by this, on our side, marching alongside us. All we ever reach are those who are already on our side.
And then it's tough to reach even them....
I'm pretty much a hermit, but one time I asked, pleaded, for help from friends and family, to just take a moment and sign a petition early on in this whole FDA thing...
And that is what I got. They are happy I'm not smoking anymore, but frankly, most don't really understand, or even care to understand vaping. Even the non smokers and never smokers are brainwashed by the quit or die paradigm. I can't tell you how many folks have asked me, so when are you gonna quit the vape? They only understand the construct as it existed before vaping came along.
I know, and for the most part I've gotten the same.I'm pretty much a hermit, but one time I asked, pleaded, for help from friends and family, to just take a moment and sign a petition early on in this whole FDA thing...
We have the science on our side. Unfortunately, policy is not based on science, even though it should be. They have the moral outrage of "protect the children" and, IMO, we're not doing enough to fight that. Even then, we need the moral outrage of "don't let grandma die of emphysema!"
The problem with this petition is the deeming, in anything close to its present form, is completely unacceptable whether its a year from now or 100. This seems to support the deeming.
As for the original question, advocacy and activism is probably higher now then in anytime in the past. Certainly among manufactures and venders, and likely among consumers. It is just not happening on ECF.
There is lots of advocacy at the CASAA Facebook page. They have less then 1/10 the members as ECF, but far more activism.
ECF is pretty much a dead zone for advocacy. Many people (including me. The only reason I got involved in this thread was because of some really ignorant attacks on CASAA) got turned off by the to many people who have used the issues to push there political ideology. Nearly every thread ends up dying because of it. Egos have also gotten out of hand. Advocacy has left the building, but it is not gone. It just moved elsewhere.
It's simple, non smokers, non vapers don't care about cigarettes or vape beyond it's nicotine and, everyone should quit nicotine - smoke, vape, whatever, it's the same to them so, should have the same rules.
Governments want tax dollars, same as they get for tobacco. We all scream when they try to riase other taxes, but smoking or vaping can be taxed because, according to anyone who doesn't, it's simply a choice so, we can quit anytime if we don't want to pay taxes.
Note that these same people also claim they can quit drinking caffeine anytime if they want, they just like the taste of caffeinated drinks. They also profess not to be addicted to anything, and that nicotine and caffeine addiction is all in your head so, just decide to quit and, you will if you want to.
Then you have the fools that believe every lie they hear or read, exaggerate a one time incident into an everyday occurrence, and use that to make vape sound very dangerous to anyone who dares do it or mention it. To listen to them, we all have batteries that explode at least weekly, we all have killed our pets by them getting into our juice and, we are all going to die or go insane because we smoke antifreeze. LOL
Governments want tax dollars, same as they get for tobacco. We all scream when they try to riase other taxes, but smoking or vaping can be taxed because, according to anyone who doesn't, it's simply a choice so, we can quit anytime if we don't want to pay taxes.
Note that these same people also claim they can quit drinking caffeine anytime if they want, they just like the taste of caffeinated drinks. They also profess not to be addicted to anything, and that nicotine and caffeine addiction is all in your head so, just decide to quit and, you will if you want to.
Then you have the fools that believe every lie they hear or read, exaggerate a one time incident into an everyday occurrence, and use that to make vape sound very dangerous to anyone who dares do it or mention it. To listen to them, we all have batteries that explode at least weekly, we all have killed our pets by them getting into our juice and, we are all going to die or go insane because we smoke antifreeze. LOL
Thanks for the FB link, I had never been to their page before. Nice to see that there are 23.6 thousand members just on FB.
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Read it the same way and was not terribly impressed.
I believe there were more than two vendors but it's been a while.
CASAA absolutely had the right to pass on it. Who can blame them? One asks, they say okay, a zillion others will expect the same thing. I don't blame them. It's all the other verbiage that went with it that was unnecessary. They, for the most part, abhor petitions so they started one.
No thank you.Please don't forget your own assault on the petition. We apologized for not including your snus (?) in a vaping petition but you were unforgiving. So be it. You have a right to your opinion, just like everybody else.
Real science or alt-science?
Yeah, , that's not even funny. But in today's world, real science takes a backseat. Hope that changes soon.
CASAA absolutely had the right to pass on it. Who can blame them? One asks, they say okay, a zillion others will expect the same thing. I don't blame them. It's all the other verbiage that went with it that was unnecessary. They, for the most part, abhor petitions so they started one.
Please don't forget your own assault on the petition. We apologized for not including your snus (?) in a vaping petition but you were unforgiving. So be it. You have a right to your opinion, just like everybody else.
I am unfamiliar with any petition started by CASAA. It could have happened, but I have never heard of it. Perhaps you can clue us in on what that would be?
Besides that, I see you are still completely clueless as to the difference between the citizens petition that is being presented to the FDA, and the badly written, pretty much useless petition that you promote. So it goes. It is your time to waste on meaningless advocacy it that is what you choose.
My assault (interesting choice of words on your part) had nothing to do with not having snus in the petition (just where did you ever get that idea?). It had to do with, besides this type of petition being essentially useless, that it was (and is) anti-THR. It was (and sadly still is) doing more harm then good. It is generating a lot of cute animal pictures so I guess it is not completely without value.
It is a good clue though as to how far down the rabbit hole ECF has gone when it comes to advocacy.
Real science or alt-science?
But that does open the possibility that if we can convince the current administration that our vapor contributes to global warming (that shouldn't even be all that hard) we can cite pulling out of the Paris Accords as the foundation to halt vaping regulation.
He was talking about CASAA response. Part of their argument was that we didn't include all forms of THR. Fighting for all of the THR products was not the goal for us in that petition and it was stated as much in the drafting thread.
As for your badly written comment, we did ask for input from ALL ECF members as well as CASAA and only a handful stepped up to help. You weren't one of them. In fact iirc you refused to help at all and condemned us from the beginning.
Now where you get this idea that there is a difference in the petitions is beyond me. All petitions are citizens petitions. This one is only different in the process that is being used to submit it and nothing more.
It's almost as if your saying because the government isn't telling you it's valid then it can't be valid. I think I know you well enough to know you don't believe that but that's how you come across.
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