Can We Stop Recommending the Subtank/Atlantis to New Vapers Please? IT'S NOTHING LIKE A CIGARETTE

[stevegmu]

So we all agree, 0.1 quad coil builds on a stacked batteries from Kmart, in a Mech mod is standard for beginners, ... right?

Of course. How else will they learn?

 

[Oberon75]

Back in the day, the Kanger Protank or Evod, combined with an Ego twist battery, was what I recommended beginning vapers. The ego twist was a perfect beginner bat, because it has the best of both worlds. It is small, slim, and tiny tube shaped, cig shaped but a bit bigger.....and the kanger pro tank and evod are two different types of clearos, both great (at the time) in their own way.


Nowadays, I don't recommend a specific battery/mod anymore. I tell them to go to the vape shop, and get a feel for what they like. I DO however, make sure they get a variable voltage, instead of a mech mod, for their first.

I also recommend the nautilus mini. It doesn't have the massive airflow or low ohms like the atlantis, but it performs extremely well, and is designed for a beginner with no tinkering.

I couldn't do that though because of my experiences at vape shops as a beginner. This over priced cheapo battery has a day and a half of use on it yet the shop owner told me how great it was.

If I'm going to recommend something to somebody, at the very minimum, it has to be from a trusted manufacturer.

Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition

 

[AndriaD]

Real clever post...Throwing around children's toy manufacturer names on an Electronic Cigarette forum has got to be a good idea with Google and all. Bravo!!

I was thinking that too... it's gotta be right up there with discussions about [illegal other stuff] -- this is all text and therefore searchable!

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

If I could have one wish, it would be as follows...

That no advice would be given until the following questions have been answered...
1) How long have you smoked?
2) How much are you smoking right now?
3) What brand are you smoking right now?
4) Are you open to the idea that larger devices would be more satisfying?
5) Are you open to the idea that different flavors might help you get away from cigarettes?

If we could just get those questions answered first, such threads could be more productive.

And yes, I know that they may/will change their priorities or even their idea of what they think they need.
But that is all part of getting them started and letting them develop on their own.

I guess it comes down to how productive it is to try and convince them that what they think they need may not be.
After all, that is the only reason such threads often reduce to arguments like we see in this thread.

I think trying to convince someone that they don't want what they think they want is usually not a good idea.
And I think it could very well confuse and frustrate more people than those who are "saved" by being convinced otherwise.

Great post! When I first got here, it was to find information about some kind of cigalike that I would actually enjoy, because I found the drugstore versions so horrible. Yes, I was told several times that cigalikes don't really work out very well, but, since I was utterly convinced that it had to be that particular form-factor, some in the new members forum were kind enough to discuss several brands of cigalikes with me, and I got an eRoll -- and loved it! At first. Over several weeks' use, I was able to see for myself why cigalikes don't work out very well, and come to an understanding of why larger devices are more useful -- but I could never have accepted that, until I saw it and experienced it for myself, because I'm just hard-headed, and probably a lot of smokers are -- why else would they still be smoking?

Once I did accept it, and starting looking around and thinking of alternatives, some were kind enough to point me at the iTaste vv3 -- small, lightweight, but very versatile with the vv/vw -- just right for someone moving away from cigalikes, and a great deal better than any eGo ever sold. I went on from there, and now have several "big honkin" tube mods (though I still like and use my 3 vv3s!), but they're all limited to 15w; given that I enjoy a tight-ish draw, I really can't see any reason to go for anything with more watts potential -- unless, perhaps, they offer extended battery life, for those vaping at lower wattage? Still don't know if that's true or not, but that would be a reason I could justify a 30w mod.

Andria

 

[beckdg]

M
A
H

Battery life per charge...

Tapatyped

 

[ruet]

But here's something I've been wondering about, since the prices on 30w mods are rapidly coming down. If a mod is capable of that kind of power, but one only vapes <15w... does the battery last longer? That's one extremely valid reason why I might consider a 30w mod, though I've never yet found a reason or need to go over 13.5w.

Andria

I use two Subtanks on my iStick 30s. One subtank runs a 1.2ohm twisted coil on the RBA section and the other runs a stock 1.2ohm OCC coil. I run them from 13 to 15 watts and they seem to last forever. The only time I pay attention to the battery meters on the iSticks is when I throw them on a charger every two or three days. They are usually at 50%-75% when I do.

 

[Oberon75]

I agree 100% with your last sentence; the "ignore" went into effect some weeks ago. But for the rest... not every vaper who vapes at lower than 15w is "living under a rock" -- some of us just don't need that kind of power for the kind of vape we prefer, and I know it's not just me; there are quite a few lower-watt vapers around here.

But here's something I've been wondering about, since the prices on 30w mods are rapidly coming down. If a mod is capable of that kind of power, but one only vapes <15w... does the battery last longer? That's one extremely valid reason why I might consider a 30w mod, though I've never yet found a reason or need to go over 13.5w.

Andria

Well I think it has more to do with the quality of your battery then it does the capability of the device. And what's nice about some of these 30w mods are that you can use your own battery.

I just calculated some numbers with Steam Engine for you and here's what I came up with.
With my MXJO IMR 18650, 13.5 watts would get you roughly 459 five second puffs with a 1.8 ohm coil while the sought after Sony VTC5 would get you 477.
I also calculated a couple of batteries that would be similar to what's in a 20w iStick and it calculated at 404 puffs at 13.5 watts.

So while the battery life isn't greatly different, it's definitely there and 50 something extra puffs can be pretty critical in the world of nicotine dependency.

And considering that it only takes a twist to remove the battery from lets say an iPV Mini, you can always keep batteries with you if you need to go longer. A NITECORE i2 charger is only $15 on Amazon and can charge two batteries at a time. The i4 is $18 and can charge four. You really never have to worry about charging your device again even though USB charging works as well on single battery APV's


And I know not everyone is living under a rock but there are a lot of people who are who don't come to these sites. Some people don't even understand the benefit of a clearo vs a cigalike. But if people can use a simple clearomizor setup and be perfectly happy, that's great. I was content for a while but my curiosity got the best of me and opened me up to a whole new world. Now I am and always have been highly dependant on nicotine. So even on the occasion that I still use my Nautilus such as places where I might offend, I'm still very much using 24mg of nic. But eLiquid doesn't taste nearly as good with so much nicotine. Through high watts, I've been able to lower my nic to 12mg and sometimes 6mg, still get a great nic fix but with an intense blast of flavor. Considering I live with a smoker who finds the idea of vaping, silly, I really need this and wish I just bought a setup like this from the beginning.

And there is a huge misconception that Sub-Ohm vaping is just for clouds and building coils at .1 ohms. That's certainly not true and I'm vaping between .7 and .8 ohms on average between 30 and 60 watts depending on my mood. My device has a 70w upgrade but so far I have not bothered.

And what I recommend, really depends on the person. But I don't believe every new vapor needs the most simple, low watt devices.

Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition

 

[AndriaD]

Well I think it has more to do with the quality of your battery then it does the capability of the device. And what's nice about some of these 30w mods are that you can use your own battery.

I just calculated some numbers with Steam Engine for you and here's what I came up with.
With my MXJO IMR 18650, 13.5 watts would get you roughly 459 five second puffs with a 1.8 ohm coil while the sought after Sony VTC5 would get you 477.
I also calculated a couple of batteries that would be similar to what's in a 20w iStick and it calculated at 404 puffs at 13.5 watts.

So while the battery life isn't greatly different, it's definitely there and 50 something extra puffs can be pretty critical in the world of nicotine dependency.

And considering that it only takes a twist to remove the battery from lets say an iPV Mini, you can always keep batteries with you if you need to go longer. A NITECORE i2 charger is only $15 on Amazon and can charge two batteries at a time. The i4 is $18 and can charge four. You really never have to worry about charging your device again even though USB charging works as well on single battery APV's


And I know not everyone is living under a rock but there are a lot of people who are who don't come to these sites. Some people don't even understand the benefit of a clearo vs a cigalike. But if people can use a simple clearomizor setup and be perfectly happy, that's great. I was content for a while but my curiosity got the best of me and opened me up to a whole new world. Now I am and always have been highly dependant on nicotine. So even on the occasion that I still use my Nautilus such as places where I might offend, I'm still very much using 24mg of nic. But eLiquid doesn't taste nearly as good with so much nicotine. Through high watts, I've been able to lower my nic to 12mg and sometimes 6mg, still get a great nic fix but with an intense blast of flavor. Considering I live with a smoker who finds the idea of vaping, silly, I really need this and wish I just bought a setup like this from the beginning.

And there is a huge misconception that Sub-Ohm vaping is just for clouds and building coils at .1 ohms. That's certainly not true and I'm vaping between .7 and .8 ohms on average between 30 and 60 watts depending on my mood. My device has a 70w upgrade but so far I have not bothered.

And what I recommend, really depends on the person. But I don't believe every new vapor needs the most simple, low watt devices.

Again, agree completely with the last sentence.

I really don't think sub-ohming will ever be for me; I was used to 1.8Ω in my kayfuns, but when I got a Magma, I made a 1.4Ω coil, still running it around 10w-ish (as I do my kayfuns, though it can vary a bit by the juice being vaped), and there was more vapor, pretty considerably more, and it often choked me up when I first started vaping that. I seem to be becoming accustomed, in fact I even rebuilt my Kayfuns at 1.4-1.6Ω, and opened their airflow a smidge, to make them vape more like the Magma. But if a 1.4Ω build at 10w can choke me up.... I don't think I want to find out what a sub-ohm build would cause.

I've got a couple of diff chargers; got a Nitecore i4 right off the bat when I got my Sigelei Zmax, but when I got a mech, I realized I needed an easy way to check battery voltage -- and more charging bays, as I've continued to acquire devices! -- so I got an Efest Luc2. I guess for me, the best cost savings is in the fact that I don't require really high-amp batteries; standard "hi-drain IMR" are just fine for the resistance I most commonly use. I do stick with either eFests (for my regulated mods) or AW (for my mechs).

Andria

 

[beckdg]

Well I think it has more to do with the quality of your battery then it does the capability of the device.

Efficiency of the device and device capabilities more often have a LOT more to do with it than the battery.

For example an 1100mah ego twist might last as long as a 2000mah AW in a provari at the same setting... IF the setting WOULD produce more current than the cell inside the ego can output. But the vape will be anemic in comparison.

As long as the voltage range is the same and the capacity is the same, and you're not over working one of the batteries, device efficiency is going to be the deciding factor on how long the cell performs per charge.

Tapatyped

 

[Oberon75]

Efficiency of the device and device capabilities more often have a LOT more to do with it than the battery.

For example an 1100mah ego twist might last as long as a 2000mah AW in a provari at the same setting... IF the setting WOULD produce more current than the cell inside the ego can output. But the vape will be anemic in comparison.

As long as the voltage range is the same and the capacity is the same, and you're not over working one of the batteries, device efficiency is going to be the deciding factor on how long the cell performs per charge.

Tapatyped

Do you know the efficiency of something like an iStick? I came up with my battery calculations based on the 92% efficiency of the iPV Mini.

Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition

 

[Baldr]

I can only speak for myself, but when I switched from smoking to vaping I wanted something that didn't look, feel, taste, or smell like a cigarette. I needed to get as far away from them as possible.

I wanted something the size of a cig, the feel of a cig, the taste and smell of a cig. I liked smoking, and I smoked heavily for decades. I don't want that *now*, but when I first started vaping, I certainly wanted to get as close to a "cig" experience as I could get.

And I think the majority of people who start vaping want that. But when they ask me about it, I tell them the no vape juice is going to taste like a cig, and that anything the size and weight of a cig is probably going to do a lousy job. There simply isn't enough battery power and juice in anything that is the size of a cig to give a good vape. Telling them "This is going to be exactly like smoking" simply isn't true, and I don't want them starting with the idea that it's the same, because I expect that will lead to disappointment.

So I tell them that there is a learning curve, and that it isn't as simple as "Tear open the pack, light it and puff away". I tell them it's not going to taste like smoking, and that over time, they'll be glad it doesn't. I tell them that they will have questions and problems at first, and that ECF is the best place to go for advice. (I'd have never made it without ECF.) I tell them that there are lots of vape shops in our area, and that some are better than others, and that as helpful as ECF is, sometimes it helps to stand face-to-face with someone who knows what they are doing and can help. The ability to taste multiple flavors before picking one is also a nice bonus of the B&M stores. Mostly, I tell them that switching from smoking to vaping is the best decision I've made in a very long time, and I highly recommend it to anyone that smokes.

 

[Ryedan]

I think we all agree that we should recommend what the OP wants/thinks might work for him/her.

But there's one more variable, which I always consider when making recommendations to new vapers, and that's tobacco harm reduction. I believe that recommending the smallest and safest tool that will do the job is never a bad idea. We don't know yet what happens when we vape at very high temperatures and inhale huge amounts of vapor into our lungs 24/7. Dr. Farsalinos is looking into it as we speak and I eagerly await the results of this study.

~~~ Big snip ~~~

One can always get a more powerful device or a diacetyl-loaded custard juice if that's what it takes. We have choices.

I completely agree with your post except the part about high temperatures Katya. As beckdg pointed out in the post after yours, power does not define coil temperature. Yes, it has an influence, but so do a few other variables. A 100 watt vape can have lower coil temperature than a 7 watt vape, or the reverse. I think we all know this is correct but it's still repeated by a lot of people.

Your point about inhaling high volumes of juice is also not completely power related, but it is more of a concern to me. I vape my Reo Grand at 0.3'ish ohms, so between about 35-45 watts after voltage drop and I like the complete vape experience there. If I were chain vaping this setup I would be putting away 20-30 ml of juice per day. I average about 5-6 ml a day, which is IMO what counts. Yes, I could be vaing less than that but I don't think that is scary high consumption. OTOH not everyone who vapes realizes that high juice consumption very likely contributes to safety issues, which is why this concerns me.

This issue is rarely raised by people. IMO we should bring this up more often, specially with new vapers. I certainly include myself here, I don't do this anywhere near often enough though I know it's an issue. To me the logic is perfectly sound

Sure, but 80 watts done wrong gets you into the danger zone a lot faster and deeper than 8 watts done wrong. Now anyone who's been vaping for a while knows when his juice is getting fried, but someone just starting out probably doesn't.

Absolutely right Rossum, but I'm not sure that's an issue in the big picture. I agree a badly dry hit at 80 watts is a lot worse than the same at 8 watts (I learned that quickly learning how to set up Genisis attys a while back ), but IMO people who get to know how to vape at 80 watts are probably unlikely to do that more than a few times and a few times of inhaling whatever nastiness is in that is not so bad.

IMO the bigger problem is vaping small amounts of said nastiness over a long period of time making for much more total accumulation of nastiness . I don't know which style of vaping is likelier to do that but it is not inconceivable to me that the higher power setup would make the problem evident sooner than at lower power.

And that brings us back to how much someone vapes

 

[beckdg]

No I do not. Wish I had time for all that.
ETA; thought I'd quoted this... but apparently tapatypo didn't agree...

Do you know the efficiency of something like an iStick? I came up with my battery calculations based on the 92% efficiency of the iPV Mini.

Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition

Tapatyped

 

[Katya]

Katya
Darling
PLEASE

Help me remove the misconception of "very high temperatures".

I like this post very much. But that phrase is something of a thorn in my eye.

I vape @ ~80W.

But at a lower temp than a protank set at 8W.

High watt does not equal more temp.

Think of a high ohm coil vs a sub ohm coil as an oven vs a house. With the oven door closed you can cook food extra crispy with the flame cycling on and off... mostly off. With the door open you Might be able to Warm your house with the flame constantly on.

The size of my coils and air flow puts me at warming a house @ 80 watts. The size of a Carto or protank coil... and the airflow... puts the user at instant cooked...

Tapatyped

I completely agree with your post except the part about high temperatures Katya. As beckdg pointed out in the post after yours, power does not define coil temperature. Yes, it has an influence, but so do a few other variables. A 100 watt vape can have lower coil temperature than a 7 watt vape, or the reverse. I think we all know this is correct but it's still repeated by a lot of people.

OK, OK... You're right. I think.

But some unknown factors still remain with high wattage/high temperature vaping, no?

Why would Brandon (and Imeo) introduce temperature-limiting DNA chipsets if the problem didn't exist?

And why would Dr. Farsalinos do a high-temperature study?

Continuing our commitment for unbiased research on e-cigarettes, we are now launching a new campaign for what we consider to be THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect in e-cigarette safety and future development: TEMPERATURE OF EVAPORATION. Although e-cigarettes do not combust any material, heat is necessary to generate the vapor (aerosol) which is subsequently inhaled by the users. This can result in thermal decomposition of some e-cigarette ingredients, releasing potentially toxic chemicals (most commonly aldehydes, such as formaldehyde, acetaldehyde and acrolein). Until now, no study has systematically evaluated temperatures inside the wick, while we have observed several methodological mistakes in assessing aldehydes release (e.g. ingoring that higher wattage is associated with less puff duration in realistic use). Our team has initiated this research, and has already completed preliminary experiments evaluating temperature of evaporation in realistic settings, by introducing a sensor inside the wick, and by having the atomizer fully assembled and used by a vaper.

There's clearly more to it than just dry hits...

 

[beckdg]

OK, OK... You're right. I think.

But some unknown factors still remain with high wattage/high temperature vaping, no?

Why would Brandon (and Imeo) introduce temperature-limiting DNA chipsets if the problem didn't exist?

And why would Dr. Farsalinos do a high-temperature study?



There's clearly more to it than just dry hits...

Have you met victor?

Imagine him with a mech...

And a vape rag...

Or...

In the other direction...

Look what we're up against politically... (ETA: Example; flawed studies seemingly purposely misusing gear for the desired results getting published as factual representations of what we're doing to ourselves. Then being quoted ad nauseum in the press. )

Improving on the evolve chip sets and temp control is a good argument for continuing to further the industry instead of grandfathering garbage.

I'm sure someone else will think this from another angle.

Tapatyped

 

[Ryedan]

OK, OK... You're right. I think.

But some unknown factors still remain with high wattage/high temperature vaping, no?

Why would Brandon (and Imeo) introduce temperature-limiting DNA chipsets if the problem didn't exist?

And why would Dr. Farsalinos do a high-temperature study?



There's clearly more to it than just dry hits...

You certainly could be correct Katya and it will be interesting to see Dr Farsalinos' research when it's released. IMO he has in this post already suggested in a small way that raising coil surface area to handle higher power is the right way to use higher power in a safer manner. He says higher resistance in that post, but I believe the effect is not from the resistance itself, but from the higher surface area that can be used to create, without taking the heat capacity so high (with thicker wire) that it takes forever to heat up the coil.

To know for sure, we really need to have actual data. Until that comes in I have to go with my experience that I have burned juice in a 7 watt clearo quite often compared to my current devices, which means the coil temperature got too high and I might not necessarily have known when that degradation started to happen. I can also not degrade juice in my 60 watt RDA, as best I can tell, which means the coil temperature is staying low enough even when the coils get really gunked up.

So, I don't know that lower power vaping is any safer than higher power or the reverse. Temperature limiting hardware will however stop high coil temperatures in any device from degrading juice.

Which is a very good thing

 

[Katya]

I agree.

And BTW, Dr. Farsalinos is not against sub-ohm vaping at all. On the contrary:

The purpose of the study is NOT to restrict e-cigarette use and variability of devices, atomizers and power delivery-potential, but to provide valuable information to vapers so that they make informed decisions on how to use their devices. We strongly believe that variability in devices, atomizers and liquids are crucial factors in satisfying every individual need. We believe that new-generation devices are the future in e-cigarette use.

The Impact

THIS IS A HEALTH-RELATED ISSUE.
Temperature evaluation is one of the most important areas of research in e-cigarettes, since it is a major determinant in thermal decomposition of e-liquid ingredients.
This research will evaluate methods of further reducing exposure to thermal decomposition products.
We believe that it is not just the peak temperature that matters but the integral of temperature over time of puff.
It may be preferable to vape at higher wattage with shorter puff duration rather than take prolonged puffs at lower wattage levels.

 

[Katya]

Have you met victor?

Imagine him with a mech...

Victor and I go way back...

But he's not a professional vaper.

 

[AndriaD]

Victor and I go way back...

But he's not a professional vaper.

Hey, happy #5, cute lil yellow birdie. Loved your image you posted the other day with the head-flopping birdie.

Andria

 

[Katya]

Hey, happy #5, cute lil yellow birdie. Loved your image you posted the other day with the head-flopping birdie.

Andria

Thanks, Andria. It was a gif(t) from The Ocelot.