Duel AW IMR14500 Verse Trustfire 14500 Flame on a Smoktek Varicool

[Rocketman]

I think it all been done before. Trustfire, ultrafire, AW against AW.
The current trip point on a protected cell limits max current drain. Good thing, or Bad?
If you need 3 amps, does a 6-8 amp protection trip do what you want?
If you need 3 amps, does a 2.5 amp trip do what you want?
If you need more amps, go IMR.
If you can't live with the initial, and continuous voltage lost by the series resistance of the Mosfets in a protection board, go IMR.

If 20 amps short circuit current isn't scary, go IMR.

I don't do much with small cells, but for 18650 (and larger ) some protected cells will trip at 2.5 amps. Good thing, because they can't supply more than that anyway. Some of the protected cells can continuously pass 5 to 6 amps , trip a little higher.

Comparing cells is a great passtime
If it helps you pick the appropriately rated cell for your application, so much the better.

As far as comparing the 14500 AW IMR to the IC. If you have a small high powered hot wire flashlight, the IC will trip when the bulb is cold. Takes a double, triple click to get the bulb up and running. A trustfire 14500 protected cell will probably never start it, and the IMR will have no problem. But, the trustfire, no matter how crappy it is, is doing exactly what it was designed to do. Trip with a pre-programmed max current.

 

[Rocketman]

Gonna help you out Tom



Fill this in and post it

I, Tom Z. Great, do hereby apologize and promise never again to commit ECFicize by posting a battery review that contains data comparing apples and oranges.


Sincerely,


____________________
T.Z.Great

 

[niczgreat]

Gonna help you out Tom



Fill this in and post it

I, Tom Z. Great, do hereby apologize and promise never again to commit ECFicize by posting a battery review that contains data comparing apples and oranges.


Sincerely,


____________________
T.Z.Great

I Tom Z Great, do hereby apologize for posting the truth, I promise to create an anonymous Identity next time I commit ECF Cize by posting a battery review that doesn't contain data that glorifies the AW Battery Line. Or if I post under my own name I promise to Lie and falsify test results so that AW continues it's exalted reputation.


Sincerely (NOT),
Tom Z Great

 

[niczgreat]

I think it all been done before. Trustfire, ultrafire, AW against AW.
The current trip point on a protected cell limits max current drain. Good thing, or Bad?
If you need 3 amps, does a 6-8 amp protection trip do what you want?
If you need 3 amps, does a 2.5 amp trip do what you want?
If you need more amps, go IMR.
If you can't live with the initial, and continuous voltage lost by the series resistance of the Mosfets in a protection board, go IMR.

If 20 amps short circuit current isn't scary, go IMR.

I don't do much with small cells, but for 18650 (and larger ) some protected cells will trip at 2.5 amps. Good thing, because they can't supply more than that anyway. Some of the protected cells can continuously pass 5 to 6 amps , trip a little higher.

Comparing cells is a great passtime
If it helps you pick the appropriately rated cell for your application, so much the better.

As far as comparing the 14500 AW IMR to the IC. If you have a small high powered hot wire flashlight, the IC will trip when the bulb is cold. Takes a double, triple click to get the bulb up and running. A trustfire 14500 protected cell will probably never start it, and the IMR will have no problem. But, the trustfire, no matter how crappy it is, is doing exactly what it was designed to do. Trip with a pre-programmed max current.

Hey Rocketman, for whatever reason on the Smokbox Varicool no matter what I did it didn't trip the circuit on the battery.
Even at 6.6 Volts the Trustfire didn't trip it. The Smokbox has a 3 amp regulator and theoretically it could have, but something in the way it's drawing voltage did not overtax the Trustfire. I was expecting the 1.5 Dual Coil to do this but it didn't . So Model Specific to the Varicool the Amp advantage of the IMR just wasn't necessary.
The Trustfire was able to mantain a 6.0 for 5 seconds than a 5.9. as compared to the AW 6.3 than 6.2 than 6.1. But the circuit wasn't tripped and I was testing running for 15 seconds which is far longer than an average vape.

 

[niczgreat]

If you need more amps, go IMR.
If you can't live with the initial, and continuous voltage lost by the series resistance of the Mosfets in a protection board, go IMR.

If 20 amps short circuit current isn't scary, go IMR.

I don't do much with small cells, but for 18650 (and larger ) some protected cells will trip at 2.5 amps. Good thing, because they can't supply more than that anyway. Some of the protected cells can continuously pass 5 to 6 amps , trip a little higher.
C

I tested the Trustfire on the smoktek Varicool up to 6.6 volts and it held the voltage rock solid. So the varicool based on the technology that it's using never needed a IMR battery. The Trustfire held steady voltage up to 6V and even at 6.6 it only dropped off .1 v over a 15 second period.

The real world tests showed the SmokBox Varicool doesn't need a IMR Battery to perform up to 6.6V on a single coil atomizer. Protection never tripped and I felt the batteries and they were cool.

This doesn't mean that other mods don't need the IMR technology to perform. It's just specific to the Smokbox Varicool VV.

 

[Rocketman]

and we are really sure that the trustfire actually has a protection board on it?
Circuit board on negative end and thin sense strip running up the side to the positive cap?

 

[niczgreat]

I have a whole gaggle of dual-14500 box mods in VV and 5-volt regulated, so many that I have a huge stock of 14500 batts. I've also got three bottom-feeders that take a single 14500---VMod v2, Old Goat, and a Missy Wetbox v2.

If I had bought all AW high-drain 14500s, I'd be a pauper now. Well, not really, but you get my point. Instead, I found a reliable internet source in America for protected Trustfire 900mAh blues dirt cheap ($2.35 each, shipped---not saying where, since I like being able to get them whenever I want), so those are my main batts in that size. I also have about six AW reds and eight Trustfire flames purchased early on. Of the 63 14500s I've bought over nearly two years (with most at least a year old and recharged often), only three have crapped out. All the rest are still going strong. And yes, I keep them in marked pairs.

For me---and I emphasize that this is my personal experience and leaning only, YMMV---the Trustfire blues are terrific. I haven't noticed any perceptible difference in performance---meaning vape quality and time---compared to the AWs and TF flames. The TF blues are protected, but tend to be a millimeter or two shorter than the flames, making them an easier fit in many of my boxes.

Everyone gets to use whatever batteries he/she chooses. For 18650s, I tend to go with hybrid Pannys or Efests, either button-top or flat-top (depends on the mod). For 18500s or 18349/50s, it's Efests or AWs. For 16340s, I like Trustfire flames. For 14500s, I buy Trustfire blues every time I need more.

Hi Bill,
Just curious what charger do you use.?

 

[Optimo]

I did not rate the AW 18650. I did not rate the VMax. I did not rate the Trustfire Line of Batteries. I did not rate the Vmax using Trustfire Batteries

I rated the AW Imr 14500 against the TrustFire Flame 14500 in a Smokbox Varicool VV Mod.

Did you read my tests? Their was no superior performance except with a Dual Coil 1.5 OHM Cartomizer running at 6.6 V.

I read your tests and you did a great job. I didn't post that to mock anything you posted I was just expressing my opinion about AW Vs TF in general.

 

[niczgreat]

I read your tests and you did a great job. I didn't post that to mock anything you posted I was just expressing my opinion about AW Vs TF in general.

All is good. Thank you so much for reading my tests and approving of them. They were time consuming. I'm not a professional tester with fancy equipment. So I had to come up with a way to scientifically test the batteries simulating real world use.

It just seems like everyone thinks I"m trying to make a blanket statement about Trustfire and AW. That's why I answered your post the way I did. On looking back it could appear that I was annoyed or being snippy. But my intention was just to dispassionately explain that my testing had a limited scope.

I do believe forum consensus that overall AW does make a better product, but with the configuration and battery models that I used it didn't prove superior to the Trustfire.

The funny thing is that I entered into the test biased from all the I've read on the forum, and was expecting the AW to destroy the Trustfire. It didn't happen. And I torture tested the batteries.

 

[niczgreat]

Rob the owner of Smoktek was nice enough to send me the Spec Sheet on the Adjustable Output 3-Amp Converter contained in the unit. He also explained that the two batteries in the Varicool VV are operating as stacked batteries.

The Spec Sheet explained a lot. Turns out that the Converter takes a input of 1.34 to a maximum of 2.26 Amps and converts it to an output of 3 Amps. Because the maximum Amperage the converter will pull from the battery is 2.26 it never trips the battery protection which normally will go off around 2.5 Amps.

That's why two cheap Trustfire Protected Battery Performs as well as two AW IMR in this unit.

The stacking techology of the batteries means that instead of a boosting system like the Provari , you have a regulator lowering or pulling the correct voltage, with plenty to spare. This may be the reason why the system runs so cool and is so efficient.

So the test results that I obtained in the comparison are very Specific to the technology that is being used.

 

[Rocketman]

Might help with the analysis if you think watts in -10% (converter losses) equals watts out.

Looks like you picked some cells suitable for your application.

Good job.

 

[niczgreat]

Might help with the analysis if you think watts in -10% (converter losses) equals watts out.

Looks like you picked some cells suitable for your application.

Good job.

Hi Rocketman,

The Chip Manual says "High power conversion effi ciency at 93%"

I'm not a battery or APV expert, could you explain how this affects the Analysis?

 

[billherbst]

Hi Bill, Just curious what charger do you use.?

tom,

I have a whole bunch of chargers, all of them fairly low-end. My normal standard charger is a 4-bay Trustfire 003, but my favorite is a cheap little no-name 2-bay wall-mount charger I got for about $3 from eBay (some engineer gave it a glowing report on ECF, so I got one). For 3.7V ICRs/IMRs of any size up to 18650s, it performs beautifully. Charges everything to precisely 4.22 volts and then cuts off (doesn't even keep trickle charging---it actually shuts down). Wonderful.

My least favorite is a Madvapes 4-bay HG-1412 charger I bought on a whim. That sucker is FAST (I don't remember what the current rate is, but it's easily twice as much as my Trustfire 001/003 chargers). The problem is that it doesn't recognize IMRs and just keeps charging them, right up to about 4.6 volts, which, of course, means quick death for those batts. It damaged two Panny hybrids I charged on it (I was guilty of impatience), significantly shortening their run times.

I also have three dedicated chargers for the 4.8V green NIMH batteries I use in all my old 3.7V 18650 tube mods (MaxiRoughStacks, Omegas, EPowers, Phidias bottom-feeders)---two single-bay and one two-bay. The single-bay were the first ones offered, and their LEDs never turn green, so you have to monitor them closely. The two-bay is very nice. They all charge to about 5.4V, which then settles to 5.2V. Those NIMH batts have significant voltage drop under load, which I actually like, oddly enough, since they get max performance out of 1.7-ohm Smoktechs and 2.0-ohm Boge LR cartos without popping them.

I haven't tried any of the more expensive Pila or Xtar chargers, and hobby chargers are way more than I want to take on. Can't tell you why, but something about the many reviews I've read of the Pilas and Xtars leaves me not quite convinced about how wonderful they are.

There is a relatively new charger out that I'm considering. Can't remember the manufacturer right now, but it's a mid-priced four-bay that has done extremely well in testing in the flashlight forums. I may get one of those to replace the Madvapes HG-1412.

 

[Rocketman]

Hi Rocketman,

The Chip Manual says "High power conversion effi ciency at 93%"

I'm not a battery or APV expert, could you explain how this affects the Analysis?

OK, 93% is easier with a buck converter than a boost converter and it might be a little less over the entire operating range.
If you used 6.0 volts into a 3 ohm carto for example, you would be vaping at 12 watts.
The cells would have to put out just a little more than 12 watts for 12 to get to the carto.
So at 93% efficiency the formula would be P(in) X 0.93 = P(out)
12.9w going in, only 6.45 watts per cell.


Even running it hard like 6.0 volts @ 2.0 ohms for 3 amps out (18 watts )
P(in) X 0.93 = 18, that's about 9.7 watts from each cell.
Pretty close to the trip point on the Trustfires I would think.

The efficiency probably falls off 2 or 3% at each end of the operating range.
But even 90% is pretty good.

 

[niczgreat]

OK, 93% is easier with a buck converter than a boost converter and it might be a little less over the entire operating range.
If you used 6.0 volts into a 3 ohm carto for example, you would be vaping at 12 watts.
The cells would have to put out just a little more than 12 watts for 12 to get to the carto.
So at 93% efficiency the formula would be P(in) X 0.93 = P(out)
12.9w going in, only 6.45 watts per cell.


Even running it hard like 6.0 volts @ 2.0 ohms for 3 amps out (18 watts )
P(in) X 0.93 = 18, that's about 9.7 watts from each cell.
Pretty close to the trip point on the Trustfires I would think.

The efficiency probably falls off 2 or 3% at each end of the operating range.
But even 90% is pretty good.

If the chip itself only allows 2.24 amps to draw from the battery. Wouldn't it shut down if it was drawing over the 2.24 Amps that the chip allows?

Do you have a cartomizer combination to try that would for sure either cause the battery to cutoff or the chip to cutoff?. It would be fun to try.

 

[Rocketman]

You're correct, I keep forgetting it's a buck device. I use a variable load (4 ohm 150 watt ohmite rheostat).
Running a PV up to the limit to see the cutoff/shutdown or voltage sag is probably a good way to shorten it's life.

How fast does your car go? How often do you test it

Since you have been bitten by the test bug, might want to think about using less critical equipment for testing.

A 1.5 ohm carto connected to a single full charge Trustfire 14500 should drop the full charge loaded voltage to about 3.8 for a few seconds. At absolutely full charge, you MAY be able to trip the overcurrent on the cell.
Some cheap resistors instead of carto could be used to directly load a cell, monitored with a cheap voltmeter to check overcurrent trip point.
this 1.5 ohm, CB5JB1R50 Stackpole Electronics Inc | CB5JB1R50-ND | DigiKey
this 1.3 ohm, SQP500JB-1R3 Yageo | 1.3W-5-ND | DigiKey
this 1.2 ohm, SQP500JB-1R2 Yageo | 1.2W-5-ND | DigiKey
and this 1.1 ohm, SQP500JB-1R1 Yageo | 1.1W-5-ND | DigiKey,
are about 55 cents each. A small handful of parts cost about 2.30 to ship first class.


Some people find Digikey hard to search.
go to their web site,
Try a search for resistor, scroll down to Through hole resistors, click the in stock box, select 5 watts and the resistance value of 1.6 ohms.
You might come up with this one
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SQP500JB-1R6/1.6W-5-ND/18636