Made a choice today. Diacetyl & AP.

[TREX2014]

Before I start this thread, first of all, I'd like to say THANK YOU to everyone who replied to my first post here about sub-ohm vaping and the possible outcome of more carcinogens being produced. I didn't expect that many responses that fast.

To those of you who DID reply:
I am an HVAC service tech, I do have a multimeter, and I always practice safesex. I mean safevaping.

I didn't post this thread with the other because it's a completely different issue. That issue is Diacetyl & AP in flavorings.
This thread is not intended to be a place to argue amongst one another over whether it's safe or not,or bicker about which vendors
have it in their juices, it has been scientifically proven to be harmful to human lung tissue, as well as other test animals such as
rats, and the chromatography reports are all over google for certain vendors. This thread, rather is just a take of my opinion,
and the solution I came up with FOR ME.

So after intense hours on the computer studying all of the research studies that have been done. I have concluded that for me,
in my opinion, to buy my favorite fruity cream flavors are pretty much now out of the question. I'd say my all time favorite is
Kings Crown - Fight your Fate, I would vape it 24/7 all day if I could, it's by the same girl who produces the Suicide Bunny line.
I contacted her directly and asked her if this particular flavor had any custard tones or diacetyl/ap. Of course she said no,
and I wish that was a good enough answer for me. But without a super expensive enthalpy report, all we have are words on a screen.
As much as I love you guys, I don't want to sacrifice myself as a statistic later on down the road for you.

I went to my local vape store today and purchased a flavorless 70vg/30pg 9mg nicotine blend. I dripped it in my atty on my mech,
thinking that it wasn't going to work out, maybe it wouldn't taste right, maybe it would be too bland. To my surprise it was VERY satisfying,
in terms of nicotine delivery, throat hit, and density. What was even more satisfying is knowing that I 100% didn't have to worry
about any Diacetyl or AP entering my lungs. Can you say peace of mind?

Anyway.. I'll cut to the chase here. My idea, was not only will I vape the flavorless juice by itself sometimes, but maybe
I could find some natural diacetyl, ap free flavor concentrates and experiment with making my own Juices from now on until
these vendors can man-up and let us know they care by proving what is inside of what they sell us to put inside of our bodies.
That is what makes this industry different from the big tobacco industry, and in my opinion any vendor who isn't willing to divulge that
information is not worth giving money to.

Sorry, I'm getting off on a tangent. My question is this, do any of you actually do this? Where can I find flavor concentrates that
I know are 100% free and clear of these chemicals. (Oh, and I know what you're thinking, "Why doesn't he just google search and find
our where to buy them?") Well, because that is a beauty of the forum, I can ask people who have already bought, experimented with,
and produced results with these flavors instead of having to take a vendors word at face value. I honestly hate to be so distrusting of
people, but with everything I've learned, It's less about offending people now, and more about self preservation.

I'll end the thread there. Thanks so much.

 

[GT86]

Bull City Vapor is very good about posting what they know about the flavors they sell. The Perfumers Apprentice also lists all ingredients including the bad ones, on their website. I know Capellas will also disclose anything they know if you call them.
I have gone the DIY route for various reasons one of which I would like to know everything I am vaping and I too feel a lot of juice manufacturers don't disclose everything.

 

[GT86]

Oh, Capellas has a V2 line that does not contain diketones of their popular original flavors that did, so they are trying to help us out. Also TPA has a DX line that is doing the same.

 

[mecca7979]

I have also been very worried about the diacetyl in juices as most of the flavors i vape/love are custard/creamy juices. I thought the diacetyl or diketones were only present in custard flavored juices, but from what I gather must be in the creamy flavors as well is that correct? I also agree with you on vendors not being truthful about their product which is why I abstain from suicide bunny as of now, I mean it does not give a good impression for this industry. I feel vendors that are upfront and warn users that there are diketones in their juices are more deserving of my business.

 

[TREX2014]

I have also been very worried about the diacetyl in juices as most of the flavors i vape/love are custard/creamy juices. I thought the diacetyl or diketones were only present in custard flavored juices, but from what I gather must be in the creamy flavors as well is that correct? I also agree with you on vendors not being truthful about their product which is why I abstain from suicide bunny as of now, I mean it does not give a good impression for this industry. I feel vendors that are upfront and warn users that there are diketones in their juices are more deserving of my business.

That is correct. Custard/creamy flavors are known for having a diacetyl/ap presence.

 

[GT86]

That is correct. Custard/creamy flavors are known for having a diacetyl/ap presence.

They are in a lot of other flavors too that you might not expect. Check out BVC and you will see what I mean.

 

[TREX2014]

They are in a lot of other flavors too that you might not expect. Check out BVC and you will see what I mean.

What exactly is BVC?

 

[BlkWolfMidnight]

BVC I believe is Bavarian Cream,

As for your post although informative is some what on the ledge of going to start another battle royal again as many folks will argue that smoking is way past worrying about a few stray chemicals (and rightfully so, we used to inhale over 4k worth 2 of which are radioactive isotopes). I personally try not to use Diacetyl/AP in any of my mixtures but should the manufacture not post the content information of the flavoring then how am I going to know what's going on. Personally I don't claim vaping to be 100% safe and in truth I don't think we will ever know that it is but I'll tell you even with some issues its a whole lot safer then smoking (Take that to the bank FDA and BT).

Ok, you asked then I'll let you know, Bull City Vapors and E-Liquid Recipes are both good places to go (Links below)

Bull City Vapor - Best Prices on DIY e-liquid Supplies

I don't mean to sound like a promoter for bull city vapors but the owner is here on ECF and a really nice person, they may run out of stock however their prices are point on and they post any information about the flavorings that have issues as soon as they find out. As for E-Liquid Recipes that is a great place for recipes obviously however if you click on just the flavor it will tell you where to find it and if there is any issues with that particular flavoring. They also help find some of the more obscure mixture flavors that exist (note, clicking on a flavor will also give you the base starting point should you want to do 1 flavoring juices).

I'd not worry too much about putting 1 or 2 chemicals in your lungs in truth, I understand if no flavored juice is working but its not for everyone so I'd say that try it once and if you like it great, if you don't then no need to post negatively against the OP (different strokes for different folks principal). Trust me when I say that we want to see you stay off the Analog Cigs so any help we can will be given

 

[sparkky1]

Perfumer's Apprentice
Perfumer's Apprentice
ClearStream Air Published! | ClearStream by FlavourArt

FlavorArt and TFA are the only ones doing cytotoxicity testing.

 

[sparkky1]

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6pon5hhbk4aasnu/_jAiqer4H2

 

[vapero]

I hate creamy flavors so this was never an issue for me, but if I did liked them I would probably still made the change to different flavor profiles that are safer, I'm on fruits and menthol's

 

[skoony]

the main problem i see with diaceytyl is the
occurrence of popcorn lung in popcorn production workers
was so low as compared to other causes that it was in
the margin of error when compared to a non risk group.
as far as i know only one person has claimed to have
gotten popcorn lung from eating to much microwave
popcorn.
from what i have heard the OSHA acceptable workplace
exposure limits were set extremely low when compared
to other substances known to be harmful.
a recent study testing many different e-juice brands
found diacetyl in 72% of juices that claimed to be diacetyl
free. of these 30 to 40 % were over the OSHA exposure limits.
it was not mentioned which ones were over or by how much.
for know i wouldn't ditch your creamy cheese cake juice,just
don't make it your ADV until this issue either gets resolved
or there is a clearer understanding of the potential harm as
it pertains to vaping.

regards
mike

 

[rolygate]

Many of us do as you suggest, in order to minimise risk or alternatively to minimise the impact on lungs with existing problems.

As you say, all creamy / custard / dairy / dessert flavours have an increased risk for diacetyl or similar inclusions, although since it is used as a flavour enhancer (it's the vape equivalent of MSG), it can be found in just about anything.

It is pointless listening to what retailers say, there are are too many people in the manufacturing and distribution chain above them. Farsalinos demonstrated that 74% of creamy retail e-liquids he tested contained toxic flavourings such as diacetyl even when all the vendors denied it. The only proof of what a retail product contains is a full, independent test; and since the standard lab test quality is a 98.5% analysis, you can still be left with 1.5% toxic adulterants - clearly a useless analysis for these purposes.

Flavourart and The Perfumer's Apprentice are in a better position than most flavour suppliers to know what is in their products, as they have carried out more tests and more investigations than other flavour suppliers. That's not to say they can be absolutely trusted, since no one can unless they produce a current, independent, full analysis carried out to a proper standard such as 99.5%.

The only thing we know for certain about the flavour manufacturing industry is that they are fully prepared to lie about toxic ingredients in their products with full knowledge of the harm it will cause further along the chain. It therefore pays to be careful, especially if you have some sort of medical reason to be cautious. For those who are well aware they have lung issues, then it might pay to reduce any/all flavouring to the minimum, especially as regards unknown additions with no known quantification or history.

So perhaps you might:
- Buy the highest quality unflavoured base that you can
- Use an atomiser system that delivers the most flavour with the minimum flavouring percentage
- Choose flavourings from a source you judge to be more reliable than others
- Add the minimum amount needed

 

[TREX2014]

BVC I believe is Bavarian Cream,

As for your post although informative is some what on the ledge of going to start another battle royal again as many folks will argue that smoking is way past worrying about a few stray chemicals (and rightfully so, we used to inhale over 4k worth 2 of which are radioactive isotopes). I personally try not to use Diacetyl/AP in any of my mixtures but should the manufacture not post the content information of the flavoring then how am I going to know what's going on. Personally I don't claim vaping to be 100% safe and in truth I don't think we will ever know that it is but I'll tell you even with some issues its a whole lot safer then smoking (Take that to the bank FDA and BT).

Ok, you asked then I'll let you know, Bull City Vapors and E-Liquid Recipes are both good places to go (Links below)

Bull City Vapor - Best Prices on DIY e-liquid Supplies

I don't mean to sound like a promoter for bull city vapors but the owner is here on ECF and a really nice person, they may run out of stock however their prices are point on and they post any information about the flavorings that have issues as soon as they find out. As for E-Liquid Recipes that is a great place for recipes obviously however if you click on just the flavor it will tell you where to find it and if there is any issues with that particular flavoring. They also help find some of the more obscure mixture flavors that exist (note, clicking on a flavor will also give you the base starting point should you want to do 1 flavoring juices).

I'd not worry too much about putting 1 or 2 chemicals in your lungs in truth, I understand if no flavored juice is working but its not for everyone so I'd say that try it once and if you like it great, if you don't then no need to post negatively against the OP (different strokes for different folks principal). Trust me when I say that we want to see you stay off the Analog Cigs so any help we can will be given

Thank you for your reply. I've heard the argument about not worrying about the 2 chemicals because we used to inhale thousands of them. While I do agree with you that vaping is not 100% safe, I know that for me personally, I started vaping in order to reduce the chemicals I'm taking in, with that being said it doesn't make sense to me to not worry about what's in ejuices since the reason I quit is to steer clear of as many harmful chemicals as possible, It's simply a chemical that can be avoided, and doesn't have to be in juices. So why not avoid the extra risk? I am going to check into bull-city vapors as well as a few others posted in this thread.

 

[Just Me]

If I remember correctly, from reading some post on here last year sometime, diacetyl is also in strawberry, graham cracker and brown sugar (among others), so it isn't limited to just custards and buttery flavors.

I was partial to creamy, buttery flavors in the beginning. After all this diacetyl information came out, I changed my mind. And after all the scare about banning e-cigs and flavorings, I decided to DIY. I stockpiled several years' worth of nicotine liquid and have been making my own e-liquid for over a year now. My flavoring is Maxx Blend at 1% and menthol at 3%, and that's all. It wouldn't surprise me if Maxx Blend contains diacetyl, even though it's a "tobacco" flavor, but at 1%, maybe it won't be too harmful.

Would I like to buy luscious vapes from venders? Yes. I just don't want to take the chance until everything is known about flavorings. After quitting a 45 year smoking habit, I'd like to stay as clean as possible and give my lungs another chance. DIY is much cheaper anyway.

 

[Jonner]

Trex, I don't know if you are limiting yourself to DIY, but if not, there are at least 2 eliquid suppliers that have Diketone free liquids, both Mountain Oak Vapors and TheCleanVape.com, and they both provide lab certificates for most, if not all, of their juices. There is also a lot of information here: AEMSA | American E-Liquid Manufacturing Standards Association
I'm not trying to stir the pot, or controversy, but I made the same choice as you a few weeks ago, and the more info you have at your fingertips, the better. Good luck.

 

[sparkky1]

Trex, I don't know if you are limiting yourself to DIY, but if not, there are at least 2 eliquid suppliers that have Diketone free liquids, both Mountain Oak Vapors and TheCleanVape.com, and they both provide lab certificates for most, if not all, of their juices. There is also a lot of information here: AEMSA | American E-Liquid Manufacturing Standards Association
I'm not trying to stir the pot, or controversy, but I made the same choice as you a few weeks ago, and the more info you have at your fingertips, the better. Good luck.

They don't even show a full MSDS sheet...
If you want to see real results look at FlavourArt and there chemist do a cytotoxicity in vapor form test or email Linda at TFA.
The new ester of choice now is called butyric acid and the only one using it now is FlavourArt

 

[TREX2014]

I just got together an entire order on bull city vapors to find out they don't take paypal

 

[AndriaD]

What exactly is BVC?

Actually it shouild be "BCV" -- bullcityvapor.com -- they pay a lot of attention to disclosing which flavors are problematic -- when they know.

Also -- Capella's Sweet Cream -- a great "base" note type flavor, for fruits, etc -- does not have diketones as far as I know, and it's a very good, very realistic flavor. Capella's Vanilla Custard v2 is horrible, very artificial tasting. TFA's Vanilla Swirl, it's their remake of their custard flavor, but without diketones, is MUCH!!! better.

I share your paranoia about diketones because I have asthma, and don't want my lungs gettng any worse, but it's possible to make some great DIY juices without diketones, if you're careful in your flavor selection. That's exactly why I've moved almost entirely to DIY ejuice, because you really can't trust ejuice makers to really tell you the truth about what's in their juices.

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

I just got together an entire order on bull city vapors to find out they don't take paypal

No, but they're completely trustworthy -- been around for a while; they're great! I buy 99% of all my flavors from them.

Andria