Nicotine causes lung cancer....?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Old Chemist

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Dec 23, 2009
324
130
68
Poland
starychemik.wordpress.com
The doctor was just following a simple scheme:
- cigarettes cause cancer
- cigarettes contain nicotine
ergo
nicotine causes cancer.

A friend of mine had switched from analogs to e-cig. The following week his car was hit by a truck.
Conclusion (following the above path): switching from analogs to e-cigs causes car accidents.

I wonder whether medicine students learn something about deductive reasoning.
 

Nikinic

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 13, 2012
273
914
Utah
The doctor was just following a simple scheme:
- cigarettes cause cancer
- cigarettes contain nicotine
ergo
nicotine causes cancer.

A friend of mine had switched from analogs to e-cig. The following week his car was hit by a truck.
Conclusion (following the above path): switching from analogs to e-cigs causes car accidents.

I wonder whether medicine students learn something about deductive reasoning.

LMAO guess I better stop driving.
 

Bluesman

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jan 16, 2012
1,060
3,600
PA USA
Not discrediting this in any way but I believe we are all born with a certain amount of cancerous cells or cells that have the potential or that are at more risk or something like that for getting full blown cancer. I think the problem is when they start to grow and spread. I could be wrong though but I thought I heard something to that effect.

I think I read something like that as well, Pep. I am not medically educated, so I can't be the word of fact here. I think our body, at some point, becomes unable to control/fight those cells and then they have the opportunity to grow. What nicotine has to do with that I don't know.

I never call someone an idiot. It's just not right to do that. Your doctor has information that supports her stance. From what I know that is not correct. But that is not say, I know what I'm talking about. I do know that I am doing much better since I've quit smoking cigarettes and started vaping. Am I putting my health at risk with something else now? Maybe. But maybe I can "live" with that risk.

Yeah, I hope you can get a new doctor. That is not always easy to do. Good luck in your search.
 

dlsw

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 11, 2012
1,918
8,958
Ohio
CASAA%20Medical%20infograph.jpg This came out small, but here is the link: CASAA Medical Info-graph (Free download) I'd give this to the doctor and get a new one as fast as I could.
 

kristin

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Aug 16, 2009
10,286
20,399
CASAA - Wisconsin
casaa.org
I read somewhere that nicotine has been known to promote cancer growing cells. I wish I would have bookmarked the article. They tested it on lab rats that already had cancerous cells and it increased the growth. I'll try to find it when I'm off and post it...I have to get to bed..work tonight.

No research which had POSSIBLY linked nicotine to causing or promoting cancer has been backed by similar findings nor been conclusive. One study is never conclusive. If there had been conclusive findings about nicotine and cancer then the nicotine products made by Big Pharma should have warning labels.

i wouldnt go so far as to say the doctor is an idiot. I would call her and ask for more clarification maybe on the lung cancer thing. Maybe she does know something we dont.

If she did "know" that nicotine causes cancer then she should be brought before the medical board for unethical behavior for not sharing that with the public. Fortunately, she is 100% wrong. Sorry - she may not be an idiot in general, but she definitely made an idiotic statement for essentially telling a formerly smoking patient that he has any risk of cancer from the smoke-free nicotine in the e-cigarette that probably saved his life. I bet she'd have no problem telling him to use a FDA-approved smoking cessation product which either A) has a known risk of causing heart attacks and/or suicide or B) contains....nicotine (and which fails 93% of the time, causing a relapse back to smoking and therefore, exposure to many more chemicals which HAVE been conclusively shown to cause cancer.)
 
Last edited:

DMF

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Nov 27, 2010
765
240
Slower Lower Delaware
Many doctors aren't used to having patients (especially smokers) who keep themselves educated enough to know that what they tell you may not be the truth. They rely on the shock value of "I'm a doctor you need to trust me and do as I say or you'll DIE" and don't expect you to do your own research to find out differently.

I'm sure the doctor would be surprised to say the least, if you gathered some information and presented it to her, from CASAA and the medical journals to support the fact that nicotine is not the carcinogen , but the other byproducts of cigarette smoke that cause the real heavy damage.
 

markfm

Aussie Pup Wrangler
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 9, 2010
15,268
45,866
Beautiful Baldwinsville (CNY)
From Wikipedia: Nicotine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Historically, nicotine has not been regarded as a carcinogen and the IARC has not evaluated nicotine in its standalone form and assigned it to an official carcinogen group. While no epidemiological evidence supports that nicotine alone acts as a carcinogen in the formation of human cancer, research over the last decade has identified nicotine's carcinogenic potential in animal models and cell culture."

The doctor may be confusing nicotine with the "heavy-hitter" tobacco-specific nitrosamines (TSNA), or they may be starting from the things which you can read in the Toxicology section where it may not directly cause cancer but can promote growth. What I have been running across aren't actually related to lung cancer, but rather promotion of cancers in other areas of the body.

We always ought to acknowledge that this isn't some kind of perfectly safe activity. Sometimes we forget that this is harm reduction, not harm removal.

Nicotine has some positive effects, some negative, like many things.

Reference Wikipedia citations 59 - 66. See also Nicotine inhibition of apoptosis suggests a role in tumor promotion, Nicotine Induces Cyclooxygenase-2 and Vascular Endothelial Growth Factor Receptor-2 in Association with Tumor-Associated Invasion and Angiogenesis in Gastric Cancer, Sensitization of epithelial growth factor ... [Breast Cancer Res. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI, and, although I know the FDA is supposed to be evil in all things, see http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/NewsEvents/UCM232139.pdf

I'm not about to stop vaping, it's surely a lot better than smoking, no TSNAs, no carbon monoxide, and only a small fraction of the many chemicals found in burning cigs, but don't kid myself that it is perfectly safe.
 
Last edited:

kristin

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Aug 16, 2009
10,286
20,399
CASAA - Wisconsin
casaa.org
Who said it was perfectly safe? Caffeine isn't perfectly safe either but you don't see doctors telling patients not to use it unless they already have a pre-existing condition that could be exacerbated by ingesting a stimulant. The point is how this "not 100% safe but extremely low risk" product is treated compared to similar products. There is a HUGE double standard and that attitude by the medical profession puts smokers BACK at higher risk. They'd rather not have patients continue a low risk behavior for the rest of their lives, so instead they continue to advise smokers to quit nicotine altogether, even though statistics show that will most will relapse and go back to smoking. Instead of using a low-risk nicotine product for the next 20 years, they spend 20 years trying to quit and likely smoking much more often than not.

Wikipedia is a poor source of info on this. That line about nicotine is misleading because most people don't understand the difference between "carcinogenic potential" and something which has actually been proven to cause or exacerbate cancer in human. Additionally, there are many chemicals which cause cancer in animals but not humans and vice versa. Not to mention the massive amounts animals are exposed to in order to get to the point that they become harmful. All of the "links" researchers have found have been unproven to mean anything to human exposure to nicotine.

Saying that smoke-free nicotine is not a safe alternative to smoking is like saying driving sober is not a safe alternative to driving drunk. It is so many magnitudes safer than smoking and so similar in low risks to many other socially accepted products that it is disingenuous of health professionals to even bring up the fact that it isn't "100% safe."
 

markfm

Aussie Pup Wrangler
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 9, 2010
15,268
45,866
Beautiful Baldwinsville (CNY)
"No research which had POSSIBLY linked nicotine to causing or promoting cancer has been backed by similar findings nor been conclusive. One study is never conclusive. If there had been conclusive findings about nicotine and cancer then the nicotine products made by Big Pharma should have warning labels."

1) I did post multiple citations. 2) There are warnings posted in the nicotine replacement products sold by BP, covering precisely such topics.

If you read the nicoderm package insert, which can be found at Nicoderm Drug Information, Professional, the Precautions start with:
Precautions to Consider

Carcinogenicity

... Inconclusive evidence suggests that cotinine, an oxidized metabolite, may be carcinogenic in rats. ...

Tumorigenicity

When given in combination with tumor initiators, nicotine and its metabolites increased the incidence of tumors in hamsters and rats. ...

Mutagenicity

...Nicotine was shown to be genotoxic in Chinese hamster ovary cells. {51}8 {51}7 {51}6 {51}5

Pregnancy/Reproduction
Fertility—
Impaired fertility has been demonstrated in mice following administration of nicotine. {51}4 In addition, implantation was delayed or inhibited in rats and rabbits by reduction in DNA synthesis that appears to be caused by nicotine. {51}3 {51}2 {51}1 {51}0 {25}9 {25}8 Rats treated with nicotine during the time of gestation have produced decreased litter sizes. {25}7 {25}6 {25}5 {25}4 {25}3 {25}2 {25}1


{There are further precautions}


.............................................................................
Yes, there are acknowledged adverse effects possible from nicotine, and Yes, BP does include the info in the nicotine replacement products. Last I knew vaping people understood harm reduction, so we shouldn't act surprised that it isn't complete harm eradication.

The comparison to driving sober vs. drunk is really poor. I'm very much pro vaping, coming up on two years, but pretending there are no potential downsides to nicotine doesn't do the cause of vaping any good.
 
Last edited:

Bluesman

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jan 16, 2012
1,060
3,600
PA USA
I hear what you're saying loud and clear, mark. Vaping has relinquished me from the habit of smoking cigarettes. My health is better and I feel better. And I will never go back to smoking cigarettes, nor do I have any intention at this point of stopping vaping.

However, to think I am doing something now that is totally risk free would be illogical. I do not have enough information to support that. Nor does the medical field have enough information to conclude anything. But they do have enough information to know that vaping is less risky than cigarette smoking.
 

Vocalek

CASAA Activist
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
If you were to create a new drug and have it approved by the FDA, you would need to start first with lab tests at the cellular level, then proceed to animal models, then to pilot studies, then to several phases of clinical trials to show that the drug has the effect you are seeking and that not too many people are killed by it in the process. After you finally get the stamp of approval to sell it, you have to do post-marketing surveillance to follow what goes on when the drug is in wide-spread use. Clinical trials often exclude people who are already taking a different medication, who are being treated for other diseases, who have heart problems, etc., etc.

What scientists see happening at the cellular level doesn't always translate into what happens in a human body. Chinese hamster ovary cells might not have the same naturally-occurring cancer-fighting substances present in humans. Chinese hamsters might not eat all of the same foods that cancer-free humans eat. There are just too many variables in play to make a definite decision based on cellular or animal studies. The acid test is the post-market surveillance.

If PVs were to be considered as a medication, they did things backwards to some extent. They have already been out on the market since 2004 world-wide. In general what happens when a smoker switches to e-cigarettes is that their health improves--especially if they smoked long enough to be experiencing some of the usual smoking-related conditions such as coughing, wheezing, etc.

The best information researchers have at present on long-term use of a nicotine product is all the research conducted in Sweden on smokers who switched to snus. In fact, this research was the basis of the presentation that Dr. Neal Benowitz gave to the FDA when they held a public hearing on whether to approve long-term us of NRTs. Supposedly NRT stands for "nicotine replacement therapy", but we who were on the wheel of misfortune have decided that the R really stands for "reduction."

But I digress. Here is a link to the Benowitz presentation. http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/NewsEvents/UCM232147.pdf

Here is what Benowitz said about cancer and smokeless tobacco (ST) use, "The lack of increase in common cancers in lifelong ST users indicates that nicotine is not a general cancer promoter." And regarding cardiovascular disease (CVD) he wrote, "Meta-analyses showing increased risk of MI and stroke in ST users are heavily weighted by CPS-I and CPS-II, which are older US studies with many methodologic problems. More recent Swedish studies and an NHANES study indicate minimal if any increased risk of CVD with ST."

There was one caution: "Nicotine likely has adverse effects on reproduction, including increasing the risk of pre-eclampsia and preterm birth."

Of course, this is based on the nicotine intake and TSNAs present in snus. People tend to take in less nicotine from vaping than they do from smoking, and the TSNA levels are much, much smaller.

Snus is processed in such a way to reduce the content of Tobacco-Specific Nitrosamines, thought to be the cancer-causing chemicals in cigarettes. To give you an idea of the range of TSNA content (calculated daily exposure with average use):

one each, 4 mg., Nicotine patch - 8 nanograms
1.5 gram, 16 mg e-cigarette liquid - 12 nanograms
20 pieces, Ariva dissolvable orbs -1,045 nanograms
8 grams of Swedish Snus (General) - 16,000 nanograms
1 pack of Marlboro full flavor -126,000 nanograms

So if 16,000 ng per day of TSNAs from General snus doesn't cause any type of cancer, it seems pretty improbable that 8 ng per day (or even 24 if you vape a lot) would cause cancer.
 

markfm

Aussie Pup Wrangler
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 9, 2010
15,268
45,866
Beautiful Baldwinsville (CNY)
The latest study I saw, though small sample, showed eXperienced vapers getting fully as much nicotine as smokers, based on cotinine measurement. It was the one everyone looked at early this year, where the common response here on ecf was "of course, we knew we were getting nicotine".

I'm very much pro vaping, no intent to stop, but we ought not be blind to potential negatives. To blithely ignore anything possibly bad makes us look like extremists, no more credible than those at the opposite end of the spectrum.

I only responded because of the piling on. I posted links to multiple documents on the topic, plus to the package insert which does note potential relationships (even if not a root cause, possibly promoting growth in tumors and other things indicating potential mutogenic aspects should not be casually dismissed).

Have we moved from promoting vaping as harm reduction, to throwing stones if we don't like something? I'm both a vaper and a techie, I'm seeing a bit too much attack cheerleading at times. My BS filters should never have to kick in at ecf relative to science.
 
Last edited:

Old Chemist

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Dec 23, 2009
324
130
68
Poland
starychemik.wordpress.com
Markfm: you're absolutely right. Many vapers just forget the simple thing - we are still addicts. Using e-cigs is an addiction, although (I always add - probably) less harmful than smoking. Therefore I frequently write in my blog - e-cigs are not "healthier alternative", they're just less harmful. How harmful? We still don't know.
You're also right that we shouldn't throw stones - we must notice we still live in glass houses, being mainly NAs (Nicotinoholics Anonymous).
 

Myk

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jan 1, 2009
4,889
10,654
IL, USA
Markfm: you're absolutely right. Many vapers just forget the simple thing - we are still addicts. Using e-cigs is an addiction, although (I always add - probably) less harmful than smoking. Therefore I frequently write in my blog - e-cigs are not "healthier alternative", they're just less harmful. How harmful? We still don't know.
You're also right that we shouldn't throw stones - we must notice we still live in glass houses, being mainly NAs (Nicotinoholics Anonymous).

If you go down to 0mg you're no more addicted than someone who bites their fingernails. Kicking the nicotine hasn't ever been a problem for me. It's the habit that's a problem.
Last time I used e-cigs I was down to 4mg in a month.

Healthier doesn't mean healthy, it means less harmful.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread