Washington bill (6569) would tax tobacco substitutes (including e-cigs) at 95%, referred to Senate Ways and Means Cmte

[ImperfectFuture]

I've been trying to see when / if this will be brought to the floor, or anything about upcoming committee / house / senate discussions. The Washington State Legislature and Home are either not showing what's upcoming, or I'm not finding the right navigation. (Not a neophyte to this, but dayum!)

Can anyone offer enlightenment?
Thanks.

Awhile back, they passed a tax in the middle of the night, right at session close time. Don't know when they list the calendar, but they may wanna be sneaky.

 

[Bill Godshall]

Latest Update from WA vape Assocation (sent out at midnight last night)

Good Evening

72 hours from now, it will be all over. Or will it? The Supplemental Budget Session is typically short, 60 days, so this particular one is scheduled to end at midnight this week Thursday. There is still a possibility of a "special session", which is an extension that could take this session out for more time until a budget bill is passed and agreed upon. Both the House and the Senate leadership is squarely in the camp of "not wanting" a special session so it is likely to end on time. But you never know, so stay tuned.

Monday Night Update
The day started off with tough news, and ended the day with good news. This is very normal and typical at the end of any session as the finality of the session creates lots of "deal making", and therefore changes and associated chaos. There will be rumors of good news. There will be rumors of bad news. It's best not to react to either one and just sit tight, follow the lead of our Lobbyist and keep informed. We are committed to bring you the most accurate and timely update possible. Good news typically is short lived, just as bad news can be. Currently, the day ended with the Democratic Caucus not being able to gather enough votes to move SHB2795 to the floor for a vote. That only leaves Tuesday, Wednesday and possible Thursday to be concerned about. Each passing day without a vote is a positive result for us.

Don't let the news, any news, deter you from the main goal. Keep your eyes focused on the task ahead of us each day – spread the gospel – keep encouraging employees, family members, friends and customers to call the Hotline and voice strong opposition to SHB2795 and SB6569 so that the legislature continues to receive a consistent message – their constituents do not want to see NEW TAXES being levied on Vapor Products; they do not want to see small budding companies go out of business and they do not want to see more Washington jobs lost as a result of misguided and uninformed legislation. It's only 3 phone calls each.

Keep the spirit – keep your energy up – keep our momentum going strong. We are making an impact. YOU are making an impact. It is YOUR EFFORTS, collectively as a group that is making a difference.

Details to follow tomorrow – stay tuned!

Regards,

Joe Baba
WA vape Association
360-348-2029

 

[zoiDman]

Thank you for the Update Bill.

 

[DrMA]

Finally got a reply from my Senator:

Thank you for taking the time to write to me about taxing e-cigarettes. I firmly believe that government is stronger when people take the time to let their elected officials know what they are thinking.

It’s always been my goal to find a reasonable middle ground on polarizing issues like this one. In this case, I agree that taxing e-cigarettes at the same level as tobacco products is excessive, especially because their health effects are unclear.

However, increasing the tax on e-cigarettes sends the appropriate message to our state’s youth that we do not do not consider them harmless. As a legislator I think it’s important to deter children and teens from using nicotine products, regardless of their form.

A middle of the road tax on e-cigarettes would allow them to remain an affordable way to stop smoking regular cigarettes without sending the message that nicotine addiction is harmless. I believe it is very unlikely that a new tax on e-cigarettes will be passed in the next few days. If this issue does come up, I will support a moderate tax increase.

I realize that we may be at odds on this issue. I’d like you to know that I will always give you and honest and straightforward answer, even when I know we don’t agree. Please feel free to write to me again if you have any other questions or concerns.

I guess the good news is that the Sen. does not see this issue coming to a vote this legislative session.

Now I have to come up with an appropriate and proportionate response...

 

[Turnkeys]

His primary concerns seem to focus around "unclear" health effects, and always... "For the children!!!" /facepalm

There was a recent bill before Wisconsin's legislature, (link to the video on CASAA) during which two separate testimonies cited air quality studies of exhaled vapor, and compared it with ambient air. Regarding his concerns about children & teens becoming addicted to nicotine, you might point out that taxes aren't going to be a barrier for them acquiring e-cigs, if they aren't a barrier to acquiring analogs. You might also illustrate the flaws and cherry picking in the CDC report.

A few points I hope are helpful. Thanks for keeping up the fight.

 

[5cardstud]

No News is Good news.
So far so good.

 

[DrMA]

How does this sound for a response? I haven't sent it yet, I'm soliciting your input.

Dear Sen. Mullet,

Thank you for for your thoughtful consideration of my opinion and your candid and straightforward reply. If I may, I'd like to reply in kind and address a few of your own concerns in the hopes that it might help you find that middle ground you mentioned.

Regarding uncertainty of the health effects of vapor products, I agree that more research is needed. Indeed, many researchers throughout the world are currently undertaking this kind of research. However, the few studies that are available, overwhelmingly indicate that vaping produces no exposures to any contaminants that would warrant health concerns for users or bystanders (Burtyn, 2013; BMC Public Health | Abstract | Peering through the mist: systematic review of what the chemistry of contaminants in electronic cigarettes tells us about health risks).

I also agree that children should be deterred from using nicotine, whether delivered by tobacco products, vapor products, or NRT products (e.g. nicotine patch, gum, or inhalator). However, there is no quantitative basis under which one might assert that taxes provide such a deterrent. In fact, one might argue to the contrary, that in spite of high taxes, a significant proportion of children and teens still experiment with tobacco, whereas there is little evidence that children and teens are inclined to experiment with tax-free NRT products such as patches or gum. This is true despite the fact that NRT products are approved for OTC use by children 12 and older (Nicorette gum - medicines and drugs - NHS Choices), so the age restrictions that apply to tobacco are not typically barriers for these children to obtaining NRT products.

Consequently, any additional tax on reduced harm products such as e-cigarettes would rather send the message that the WA legislature wants to deter the use of these devices, at the expense of public health. I'm fairly certain WA citizens would see right thru this new tax as a clear attempt to increase state revenue, thinly veiled under the guise of "protecting the children".

 

[AegisPrime]

I might strike that last dig about 'protecting the children' and instead focus on the damage even 'middle-ground' taxation might cause - consider the following:

e-cigs are already taxed as consumer goods - given that current research contends that they're at best harmless and at worst 99% less harmful than smoking, how do you warrant increased taxation other than as a deterrent to children. And whilst increasing the cost of vaping might deter a hypothetical number of children who might take up this low-risk habit, how do you balance that with the number of smokers - currently poisoning themselves - that due to financial reasons won't make the switch.

e-cigs due to current taxation are generally cheaper than smoking but only due to lower taxes - the cost of manufacture of these devices and liquids is significantly higher than tobacco cigarettes and as such, even modest tax increases may make this less harmful substitute more expensive than the product it's intended to replace - for the good of public health, it's important for e-cigs to remain a more attractive option than smoking - not the same, and certainly not worse.

 

[ImperfectFuture]

Finally got a reply from my Senator:



I guess the good news is that the Sen. does not see this issue coming to a vote this legislative session.

Now I have to come up with an appropriate and proportionate response...

Well, you might want to reply you and many others might not agree he belongs in office.

 

[ImperfectFuture]

I might strike that last dig about 'protecting the children' and instead focus on the damage even 'middle-ground' taxation might cause - consider the following:

e-cigs are already taxed as consumer goods - given that current research contends that they're at best harmless and at worst 99% less harmful than smoking, how do you warrant increased taxation other than as a deterrent to children. And whilst increasing the cost of vaping might deter a hypothetical number of children who might take up this low-risk habit, how do you balance that with the number of smokers - currently poisoning themselves - that due to financial reasons won't make the switch.

e-cigs due to current taxation are generally cheaper than smoking but only due to lower taxes - the cost of manufacture of these devices and liquids is significantly higher than tobacco cigarettes and as such, even modest tax increases may make this less harmful substitute more expensive than the product it's intended to replace - for the good of public health, it's important for e-cigs to remain a more attractive option than smoking - not the same, and certainly not worse.

Or simply reply with the first fiscal statement for 3/10/2014 that states this tax is to replace the lost revenue from losing tobacco smokers (I did a lot of reading). It's obvious from that one (they changed it in the second fiscal statement, be sure to download and save the first one), they are using Wells Fargo projections for the growth of ecigs to forecast revenue. This doesn't look like protecting the children. They also don't mind the 20% loss of ecig users (us lower income folks), since in 2 years, the projected growth of ecig users is 135%, with continued loss of tobacco smokers. And do be sure to bring up the only state paid tobacco cessation program is for people on Medicaid (the state funded medial program). Folks at 140% poverty level don't qualify, but folks at 135% poverty level do. Anyone above that manic 135%, they need to buy tobacco. It is there that this tax is to replace lost revenue from tobacco smokers. (as was mentioned in the rally video I watched).

 

[DavidOck]

And you might also ask how effective excessive taxation has been to keep "the children" off alcohol... and if that, too, if "for the children", why are they discussing lowering it?

Likewise, by taxing it out of existence, kids will just buy cigs instead...

 

[Bill Godshall]

Last night's update from WA Vape Association

Good Evening

Only 48 hours to go. One more day done. One day closer to a hopeful end.

Tuesday's Progress
As the supplemental budget process is winding down to it's final moments, the real "deal makers" are emerging out of the "5 corners" and starting to strut their stuff. The goal is to close the session on time with a budget agreed upon by both the House and Senate. Progress was made towards that end today, and I'm happy to report that SBH2975 was not part of any caucus discussion or vote or anything today. That's really good news.

Reality
The next 48 hours will be filled with ups and downs, rumors and stress. Anything is still possible. With the positive outcome today, it can still change at a moment's notice. Just when you believe the bill is officially dead, it can be resurrected and you're left scratching your head in disbelief, frustration and anger. Just like with the Super Bowl, we can not rest until the clock says 0:00 as we don't want any "Hail Mary" passes to shock the crowd.

Altria
The Legislative Director for Altria few in from the D.C. Area to meet with the local Altria lobbyists, and others, to strategize on how to complete the task of keeping HB2975 comatose. Perhaps we have Big Tobacco on our side in this fight; proof will be in the pudding – or in this case, the Vapor!!

Game Plan
Stick with our successful grass roots effort that has caused significant attention in Olympia. We don't want the same people to call the same legislatures over and over again as that can backfire on us as well. But for those of you (and customers, friends and family) that have not called, it is imperative to call the Hotline at 800-562-6000 and VOTE NO on HB2795 and SB6569. Continue the effort all the way through the end of the 4th quarter; don't relax or let up – keep the pressure on!! An example of some success can be seen with how our Lobbyist has interacted with Luis Moscoso, a Democratic House Representative in the 1st District. Moscoso is a Cigar smoker, and he committed to Stu face to face. He thought it might be a way for school money but after WE ALL GOT ACTIVATED, he started to think about all the arguments of both sides and switch! . He has sent out emails confirming his change of position. We Got To Him!! We need to continue our efforts and get to more potential converts!!

Thank You
Many of you have sent in contributions to provide support for the startup expenses of WA Vape Association. Thank you for that. I will provide a detailed Charter of Accounts and Expenses to anyone that inquires. We need to raise a lot more money to provide the resources required to pursue the goals we have for the balance of the year as we enter into another legislative session in 2015. Are you in??

Regards,

Joe Baba
WA Vape Association
360-348-2029

 

[DavidOck]

Is there a site for WA Vape Assn? Google'd and didn't find one....

 

[Turnkeys]

How does this sound for a response? I haven't sent it yet, I'm soliciting your input.

Sounds like a good response. Other than those edits already suggested, I would consider striking or editing that the existing studies that support e-cig safety are few. I've seen a lot more that, while acknowledging that more study could be useful, also state a small margin for error. Instead of the anti supporting studies that clamor alarm bells with cherry-picked results.

 

[Turnkeys]

Does anyone have an updated list of votes & opinions? I agree it could be counter productive to keep calling the same legislatures with the same opinions. But it might be useful to contact those who are for the bill, and especially those votes on the fence.

 

[DrMA]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I rephrased the last paragraph as follows:

Consequently, any additional tax on reduced harm products such as e-cigarettes would rather send the message that the WA legislature wants to deter the use of these devices, at the expense of public health. I'm fairly certain WA citizens would see right thru this new tax as a clear attempt to increase state revenue, thinly veiled under the guise of "protecting the children". Indeed, the Fiscal Notes for SHB 2795 dated 3/10/2014 unequivocally states at the bottom on page 3 that this tax on vapor products is intended to replace revenue "lost from reduced sales of conventional cigarettes" (https://fortress.wa.gov/ofm/fnspublic/legsearch.asp?BillNumber=2795&SessionNumber=63), thus punishing WA residents for quitting deadly, addictive tobacco cigarettes.

 

[Benson X]

Thanks for being so proactive and outspoken y'all! I have called my local District 22 Representatives to voice my opinion.

 

[Bill Godshall]

A well timed op/ed by Gil Ross.

ACSH’s Gil Ross: E-cigarettes and public health: exhorbitant taxes will kill smokers
E-Cigarettes and Public Health: Exorbitant Taxes Will Kill Smokers | Washington State Wire - News of Capitol Importance

 

[DrMA]

I'm honored Dr. Ross has pitched in to help WA vapers.

Looks like BP was quick on their feet with this piece of news and had one of their shills attack the good Dr. in the comments.

 

[ImperfectFuture]

A well timed op/ed by Gil Ross.

ACSH’s Gil Ross: E-cigarettes and public health: exhorbitant taxes will kill smokers
E-Cigarettes and Public Health: Exorbitant Taxes Will Kill Smokers | Washington State Wire - News of Capitol Importance

HHHMMMA, like that he developed a new acronym (though mech heads, heehee, may not like it). ENDS. People should start adapting that now as politically correct, the sooner that translates into public language, the easier it will be for vapors.