Flavors that may contain Diacetyl, are there really this many?

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BigEgo

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Will do.
Am just very busy over the next 3 days and only time for a minute here and a minute there so wanted an overall answer until I could get to it.
Thanks

To be as safe as possible, avoid Diketones. Specifically diacetyl, acetyl-propionyl and acetoin. These are usually found in custard flavors (creamy desert type stuff) and some fruits. Most vendors have gotten rid of diacetyl, but many still use AP and acetoin. Some vendors are trying to simulate the custards without using these ingredients, with varying results. The good news is that it's easy to avoid these compounds today. Most flavor manufacturers will clearly state on their website whether a certain flavor contains any of the diketones. The problem is that most e-juice makers wont do the same, so if you buy your e-juice then you will either have to avoid custard/desert flavors or find an ejuice vendor that is responsible (like Mountain Oak Vapor or another AEMSA certified line of juice). But since this is the DIY forum, I suspect you are into DIY'ing. If so, then it's easy to avoid the diketones by merely reading the flavor manufacturer's website (TFA is really good about labeling everything that contains diketones).

Secondly, watch out for the temperature of your coil. The safest way is to get a DNA-40 or some other temp controlled device, but they are expensive. Personally, I like to stay around 4 volts (no matter what resistance). A "hot" vape concerns me, so I try and keep it cool. The reason for this is that PG/VG can break down (thermally degrade) into harmful compounds when heated beyond the boiling point. If you use a mod and a RBA, then it's all guesswork right now. There is no guideline as to what wattage/voltage/resistance combinations are safe. That is unless you have a TP device that you can set to around 420 degrees.

Several studies have been done on the chemical composition of vapor. Most of these studies agree than when the coil gets too hot, bad stuff is emitted. Again, this is no surprise as PG/VG are very well studied solvents that have been used in many scientific, medical, and food applications for many decades. We always knew that this overheating could be a problem, but the question has always been "how hot do our coils really get?"

The problems with the aforementioned studies are:

1) They didn't use real humans to calibrate the heat (i.e. no humans to provide input on how the vapor tastes at high voltages). Therefore, we don't know if anyone would vape at the voltages they pushed to the coils in the lab. Most people suspect that they overheated the coil and if a human would have been on the other end, he/she would have gagged. I think this is a good assumption, at least for the devices they were testing.

2) The studies have mostly been done with cigalikes (1st gen devices) and ego twist style vape pens (2nd gen devices). To date there have been no studies done on the higher powered RBA type devices that us "enthusiasts" use. The studies on the ego type devices all seem to be in agreement that the "bad chemicals" like the aldehydes aren't released at all under 4v (using a standard CE4 clearomizer at around 2 ohms). It isn't until you get above 4.5v that these chemicals are present in any significant degree. The NEJM "formaldehyde" study only found significant amounts at the higher voltages (which is in agreement with other studies I have seen). Therefore, if you use a standard starter kit device (ego and a cheap clearomizer), it is probably smart to keep it under 4v. This shouldn't be a problem, as the vapor will taste burnt at voltages above this.

So that's where we are now; working on eliminating diketones and keeping our temps under control. That's not to say that those two things will be the "end" of the safety concerns, but they are the biggest things on the radar right now. Basically these are the KNOWN safety concerns and it's best to eliminate the knowns before you go looking for the unknowns.
 
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ST Dog

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This is very scary. Especially since most people figure that anything made 100% in the U.S. is ok. I hope that the companies really test their flavors to make sure they are safe when heated up to 400-600 degrees, or not.

If you heat any liquid, even unflavored. The PG/VG mixtures start vaporizing at 40-65C (per the FDA).
Most vape in the 200-260C range.
Dry hits typically start around 280C.

Heat most anything organic to 600C an it'll from aldehyde compounds
It will also burn the liquid and taste like crap.
Any temperature you are likely to enjoy the taste of is a safe temperature.

So, don't worry about what happens when a given liquid get that hot. You'll never inhale enough of it to matter.
 

tehmidcap

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Interesting about the flavors. Sure glad I joined this forum because I'm learning a lot.

I feel like I have a couple of the older diacetyl containing products and they were mostly ones that I found I didn't like the taste of... I always found anything that had cream or vanilla or caramel in the title started tasting burnt at the temp range that I enjoyed, so most of them went unused. Luckily I enjoy tobacco flavors the most and I don't mind vaping unflavored, but sometimes I add a couple drops of fruit flavoring into my tobacco (some of which came from madvapes which claim to use eythl alcohol and organic flavoring but I just may stop using them to be on the safe side).

Am I to understand that FlavourArt flavors are supposedly well-screened and safe for inhalation?
 

Hoosier

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FlavourArt makes flavorings for cooking and Vaping. Their site has a kitchen section that has flavorings that they only recommend for food.

So, just because it's FA, doesn't mean they have deemed it for use in juice.

I use some of of FA's kitchen line in my juice. Obviously I'm one that is not as concerned as some, but that's my choice.
 

pslr2301

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Very, very, frankly I'm suspicious. Wouldn't it be shorter and easier to just do a list if flavorings with no possibility of diacetyl's presence? This list pretty well says... DON'T VAPE! In other words... and again very frankly... it seems to be a bit fear mongering.
I'd love to have that list. I am interested in DIY because I can't find any flavors I like. Nothing has a strong enough flavor to me. I have switched to vaping after smoking 3 packs a day of bold cigarettes. Realized the week before I started vaping exclusively that I could *only* taste a burger if I put mustard on it. Seriously?? My taste buds are screwed up. Making my own I can double the flavoring and get the nicotine as well. Of course, doubling the flavoring also doubles the harmful chemicals. Catch 22. I liked smoking cigarettes. If they are equally harmful... then why can't I do both? Vape for flavor or when I can't smoke; smoke analogs in the evenings. Ugh! We definitely need better information on the liquids.
 

capthook

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^ For easy DIY diketone free flavor info, go to BCV: Bull City Vapor - Best Prices on DIY e-liquid Supplies

The flavors without diketones are shown normal, those WITH show 'caution'.

bcv.jpg
 

nat king kong

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^ For easy DIY diketone free flavor info, go to BCV: Bull City Vapor - Best Prices on DIY e-liquid Supplies

The flavors without diketones are shown normal, those WITH show 'caution'.

View attachment 424738

As much as I like and use Bull City, I would caution against this advice. I've only seen the "Caution" warning on the Capella flavors that have V2 alternatives and the TFA flavors that TFA itself publishes info on; that is, Bull City only puts "Caution" on the flavors that the manufacturers themselves have provided info on. But I don't think that necessarily means that all their other flavors are confirmed diketone free. Capella butter for one likely has diketones, although I've never tried it. Also, unless someone here has updated info that I'm not aware of, Hangsen and Inawera have never provided clear evidence that they've tested their flavors to be diketone-free.
 
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capthook

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As much as I like and use Bull City, I would caution against this advice. I've only seen the "Caution" warning on the Capella flavors that have V2 alternatives and the TFA flavors that TFA itself publishes info on; that is, Bull City only puts "Caution" on the flavors that the manufacturers themselves have provided info on. But I don't think that necessarily means that all their other flavors are confirmed diketone free. Capella butter for one likely has diketones, although I've never tried it. Also, unless someone here has updated info that I'm not aware of, Hangsen and Inawera have never provided clear evidence that they've tested their flavors to be diketone-free.

Hmm, interesting thoughts.
I primarily use TFA, and those can be crossed-checked against the TFA site that gives a full listing on their flavors:
https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx (click on the 'list' link for a flavor)
and everything has appeared accurate.
I see now how many of the CAP V1-V2's are listed - easy to put 'caution' on the V1 versions.
However, CAP Simply Vanilla has only one version and has a 'caution' listing.
Wonder where/if full spec listings are available for CAP flavors?
CAP Sweet Cream is the only flavor I have that I might not be sure of. ??
eta: and the FA flavors are good to go.
I don't use Hangsen nor Inawera, so unsure about those. ?
 
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nat king kong

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Hmm, interesting thoughts.
However, CAP Simply Vanilla has only one version and has a 'caution' listing.
Wonder where/if full spec listings are available for CAP flavors?

That's interesting, I hadn't noticed that. Maybe Capella has released information about their other flavors? I would be surprised if a lot of their flavors- the creams, cake batter etc- are now diketone free. I haven't messed with them in awhile but back when I was trying all different manufacturers, I could definitely taste custard notes in those.
 

Mr.Mann

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As much as I like and use Bull City, I would caution against this advice. I've only seen the "Caution" warning on the Capella flavors that have V2 alternatives and the TFA flavors that TFA itself publishes info on; that is, Bull City only puts "Caution" on the flavors that the manufacturers themselves have provided info on. But I don't think that necessarily means that all their other flavors are confirmed diketone free. Capella butter for one likely has diketones, although I've never tried it. Also, unless someone here has updated info that I'm not aware of, Hangsen and Inawera have never provided clear evidence that they've tested their flavors to be diketone-free.

For sure, me too. I love BCV, but they are not 100% on all of their stuff becasue of what you said.

In a weird way it's easier for people that want to use diketones if using sites like BCV considering BCV is relying on info from suppliers. So we know for sure which ones do, just not necessarily which ones don't. For instance: Capella Blueberry Cinnamon Crumble do in fact have dikeotnes, but on BCV's site it is not listed (and if I remember correctly, Cinnamon Coffee Cake does too -- but I am not 100% on that one). I told Drew that I received word form Capella about that, but I understand why he can't change his site until he gets that direct from them (though it's been awhile since I told him). I simply asked Capella and they told me so. Well, I thought so after really tasting that flavoring and I told them so -- they confirmed it.
 
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Racehorse

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Inawera does have some flavors with diketones... Apple tobacco, Cappuccino ,CappuccinoTobacco,Cocopilada,Coffee,Kent WG,Tiramisu,Vanilla Shisha, confirmed by Inawera too..

Yes, I can't imagine Tiramisu not having diketones. All you have to do is taste it and smell it. Most do contain diketenes AFAIK
 

Mr.Mann

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Inawera does have some flavors with diketones... Apple tobacco, Cappuccino ,CappuccinoTobacco,Cocopilada,Coffee,Kent WG,Tiramisu,Vanilla Shisha, confirmed by Inawera too..

That's cool that they finally disclosed this becasue before I could only guess (though I felt my guesses were on point). I guess since we know now we can go on a witch hunt for Inawera! :facepalm: Yeah, it doesn't work that way.
 

Leaded50

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this info was confirmed in a message to a guy earlyer, with remarks that theese was in subject to be changed recipes soon., and in a direct mailing with them short time ago, they said yet too, that this flavors wasnt reworked yet. But also i heard romers that Inawera now are in process of testing flavors..unconfirmed.
 
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