Flavors that may contain Diacetyl, are there really this many?

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ST Dog

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Sure, no argument and many will agree. vaping is new with lots of unknowns. Meanwhile we know diketones present significant inhalation risk to humans, to the point they should never be present without full disclosure. Perhaps a good analogy would be lead in paints -- there were a lot of ...... off parents when lead paint was unknowing used on children's toys.
Of course many of use grew up in houses with lead based paint, rode in cars covered in lead based paint, filled with leaded gasoline, and yes, played with toys painted with lead paint.

Our parents tought us not to eat paint chips and not to put toys in our mouth.

I see the DA scare on par with the great lead scare.


And we don't 'know' the signifigance of the risk that diketones actually present. If the sicence is Iike most from the last 4-5 decades I place little stock in the reported findings.
 

Rossum

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Anything measured in ppm or ppb is a trace amount. If it wasn't a trace amount it'd be reported as a larger unit, like mg or even ug (micrograms).
When looking at substances of nearly the same density, µg/ml is effectively the same as ppm. When it comes to diketones, I'd consider levels under 10 ppm a "trace", and over 100 to be "unacceptable".

Nicotine for example is generally not a trace amount.
Agreed. Which makes it rather shocking when a liquid is analyzed and the results show it has more diketones than nic.
 
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Kurt

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Anything measured in ppm or ppb is a trace amount. If it wasn't a trace amount it'd be reported as a larger unit, like mg or even ug (micrograms).

Nicotine for example is generally not a trace amount.

Not so with DA or AP. ppm = ug/mL, and these are the most common units used, trace or not. single digit amounts with these units are probably ok. 100 ug/mL is considered risky. I have seen some in the 3000 ppm range, which is just crazy.
 

Racehorse

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Not so with DA or AP. ppm = ug/mL, and these are the most common units used, trace or not. single digit amounts with these units are probably ok.

Are we talking single digits, i.e. less than 10?

I have seen some in the 3000 ppm range, which is just crazy.

I have seen several thousand but not 3000 yet, of course, I don't buy or vape anything like that anyway. :)
 

Kurt

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Are we talking single digits, i.e. less than 10?

Again, PROBABLY ok. We do not know if inhaling ANY DA or AP is safe, of course. And there are many variables in addition to liquid concentrations. If you are vaping 40 mL a day at 100W, then 10 ug/mL will be a much bigger risk than someone puffing on a Joye 510. We also do not know if disease from DA or AP is dependent on the person's physiology/genetics, but we do think that it is incremental, cumulative, and irreversable. So when I say probably ok, I mean just that: probably, but it is still largely unknown and I would not say it is zero risk. NIOSH says work environment air concentrations when translated to normal breathing would be about 66 ug/day allowable for DA. But allowable does not mean disease-free, it means about 1 in 1000 workers will get sick from a lung-related disease. If 1 in 1000 vapers get sick, we are screwed. The liquid concentrations we gave assumed 3 mL a day of liquid consumed, not some magic concentration cutoff, which many insist on hanging on to. But we have to start somewhere, and we can't monitor total ug/day consumed by vapers. But we can test in terms of concentration in e-liquids, given some assumed consumption rate.

And again, I emphasize that DA or AP are simply compounds added to give a type of taste experience. They are essentially purely luxury compounds. They do not have anything to do with nicotine absorption. You do not need these compounds to be able to vape. And vaping is not a work environment where their presence is required to do a job. They just taste good. This is why toxicologists we have contacted about this will not support any DA or AP in an e-liquid, as in zero, ziltch, nada. In so many words, their message has been: "You're kidding, right? These are flavor compounds for a recreational consumer product. There is zero need to have these known inhalation toxins in an e-liquid."

But testing for them in e-liquids is difficult, as I have said. There are significant precision and accuracy challenges when they are in a complex flavor matrix. I am working with a lab right now to get another analytical method validated and online for testing. It is not straight forward. And completely getting rid of them in e-liquids at this point is also difficult, time consuming and very expensive, especially if your custardy flavors have been big sellers, as they generally are.

So when I say < 10 ppm in a liquid is PROBABLY ok, I mean PROBABLY, with many caveats. I want to see consumers having a verifiable choice as to whether or not they are present, as in lab test results with validated methods of detection posted, so consumers KNOW whether or not they are present and in what concentrations. We were fed a falsehood before, either knowingly or unknowingly by sellers (I want to believe unknowingly), and consumers essentially had their choice that they were making consciously taken away from them without them knowing. Given the potential for serious injury, that is wrong and needs to be fixed. If regulators ban them from e-liquids (possible), or vendors choose out of concern for customers or fear of litigation to remove them completely from their product line, then that is their choice.
 

Moonbogg

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If I was making $50,000.00 per month in e-liquid sales, I'd have to admit the temptation to say D/AP is probably no big deal, and to go ahead and vape diketones would be a strong temptation. Wouldn't you guys? Be honest now.
Imagine you have thousands of addicted people who worship your brand and buy it on a regular basis because its so creamy and sweet tasting, and they gloat about how they spent 50% of their paycheck on your e-juice as if they were in a competition with each other to go broke buying your product. Would you be inclined to warn people of the outrageous risk they are taking with their lungs by vaping your product? Probably not. Just saying. These people RAKE IT IN LIKE CRAZY at the expense of your health.
Money is the great moral blinder.
 

Trayce

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Vaper's should not have to become scientists to make DIY or pick out juice from a shop. I agree that this will never end... when diketones are removed there will be another chemical, then another, then another... then it will be "this one is ok alone, but not in combo with this one" etc.

But that's the nature of things and we have to start somewhere, and usually (not always, but usually) the biggest 'threats' or concerns become known first...

Imo what the vape community needs is a flavor vendor dedicated soley to the vape community, that ONLY carries flavors that the manufacturers have established are diketone free. A store where we can shop without reading through all the damn ingredients. TFA puts a DX in front of reformulated popular flavors like Caramel and Vanilla to show they are Diketone-free, but there are other flavors that never contained diketones, so it's not like you can just browse the few DX flavors... same with CAP and V2.

And if they wanted to carry ready made ejuice, same thing. Make manuf present data sheets with the ingred of each flavor and only carry the ones that, at the time of sale, do not contain any of the then-known risk-chemicals.

As new chems are found to be potentially problematic, same thing.... all flavors removed with those chems, and new flavors added as manuf reformulate them. But the key would be ppl would know when they go to this vendor, that all the juices and flavors do not contain any of the known risk chems to date.

We obviously need to manage risk where we know it exists (not just in vaping but in all areas of life), but let's put this in a little perspective too... people who eat healthy, don't smoke, don't drink, run every day and make a lifestyle out of doing nothing but the recommended "good things" for their bodies drop dead of heart attacks at 30, get stroke, get cancer like everyone else, etc. There is no golden ticket. And some people who smoke and have a drink daily live to be 90 and older. Our bodies are amazing vehicles that do a lot of transmuting of the poisons we ingest every day from the air, from the food we eat, and the things we touch... we are not a closed system where we put something harmful in and it sits there. Our environment demands our bodies have some self-cleaning mechanisms and they work well as long as they aren't overloaded.

So this isn't all black or all white. It isn't "if you want to be healthy, don't vape" b/c there are tons of ppl who don't vape and aren't healthy at all. OTOH we don't want to invite unnecessary trouble.

So buy flavors and juices that are d-free, and if you're still worried but like your flavored juice, consider vaping flavored juice half the time, and unflavored the other half. Or use flavored like a dessert, as a treat every evening.

But life is too short to worry about every little thing, and you can NOT avoid every risk in life, unless you stand in a corner, don't eat, and don't breath. And that isn't an option.And it's not living. There has to be a certain amount of faith in life, common sense, and also, risk. And. Relaxation. B/c the biggest killer of all is stress. Stress makes it harder for your body to transmute all the things you put in it. I would guess if they conducted a study of 'health nuts' that died young, and 'smokers and drinkers' that lived into old age, they would find the ppl who died young were stressed and worried about everything to one extent or another (maybe mainly about their health!), and the ppl who lived longer worried less and enjoyed more. JMO.
 
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Smellyagain

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When I started vaping I was worried about the DAA's. Now, not so much. I also see all this recent attention as probably just more propaganda. The vaping community has known and been talking about diketones for a long time already. Recent articles or people talking about it is just one more attempt at finding something "evil" or "scary" to push regulation (AKA big tobacco/pharma control).

Cigarettes contain loads of diacetyl. How many smokers have popcorn lung? Cancer for sure, but popcorn lung similar to popcorn factory workers...? I've heard of none. I can guarantee you if there was one, big tobacco and others would be all over it and use it as a platform to crush the "evil", "dangerous" vapor movement.

How long have you been vaping? How long have the rest of us? How many people have been vaping diketone heavy flavors already for years... How many have popcorn lung? I've heard of none...

I don't keep up with the forum anymore and have not read this entire thread - so if there is any actual new development please, the questions I've asked here, if you know something I don't - tell me.

OFFTOPIC:
Now, I'm seeing people blowing their faces up using devices... I know it sucks but the truth is, everyone I've seen has blown up because of the user. These devices are very simple, if you do not understand basic current flow and the danger of using an atomizer that's made for a regulated mod VS a mechanical mod... I'm sorry, but you screwed up. Terrible for sure but if you use something incorrectly its YOUR fault.

Here we have an electrical devices that creates heat... Now we are going to stick it in our mouth... Most people I know would make sure they understand how and why this device would work. Particularly before they start mixing and matching parts (using a VWbox atty on a mech mod).

CONCLUSION:
Someday I'm sure a device will blow up because of poor design. And maybe one already has and I just haven't heard about it. In that case, the manufacturer should be sued or some other legal action should take place. But for now, all this garbage in the media is just propaganda. The stories never mention the real reason for explosion.

Someday I'm sure we'll find the negative impact of vaping flavors (or anything). It isn't natural. There must be some downside to it. But for now, I've seen nothing. It is clearly better for you than smoking. You can tell that within the first few weeks of switching to vaping... And that's good enough for me.

Again, if anyone knows something I don't, please post. I am an expert of nothing, just my thoughts.
 

Zurd

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I don't keep up with the forum anymore and have not read this entire thread - so if there is any actual new development please, the questions I've asked here, if you know something I don't - tell me.

You've summed it up pretty well! No smokers never got popcorn lungs even people smoking 3 packs a day.

And in any case, just to be on the safe side, there's less and less diacetyl in eliquids. Perfumer's apprentice has now their DX flavoring line which are diketone free. Capella have now new version 2 flavorings which is diacetyl, acetoin and acetyl free. FlavourArt is dedicated to making flavor for vapers, not just for cooking and are taking the issue of diketones seriously.

If there's anything you missed, it's just more studies proving that ecigs are way much safer than using cigarettes :)

Of course ecigs blowing up are a problem. But so is mobiles, tablets and laptops. Anything with a powerful battery with lots of energy packed in a small form factor could be a problem.
 
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Rossum

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Smellyagain

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I just googled smoker with bronchiolitis obliterans and didn't find much. I found some snippets from books that were mentioning it as being rare in smokers. I couldn't find any full excerpts from the books though.

Is that Wikipedia saying it is often misdiagnosed? How often is it misdiagnosed- what constitutes "often" (according to wiki)?

What component in smoking causes emphysema? I dunno, there's so much junk in cigarette smoke there's probably no sure fire way to correlate. If it were only diacetyl I would be very surprised. But again, they already contain loads of the stuff.


BATTERIES:
Sounds like I need to read up on batteries. Anyone know of specific instances where the battery exploded because it was legitimately faulty in a mech or VW mod?

I've always operated under the assumption that if I feel the battery getting warm I need to stop use. If I get hold of a faulty battery will the air vents do anything to stop it from exploding in my face? How much warning do I have between, thinking it's fine - to ending up in the hospital? If never encountered a faulty battery and I've used loads of bats. I'm more concerned over Battery Bombs than Flavor Danger. ;)
 
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LoveVanilla

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Diketones are additionally implicated in COPD. They should never be used in a product intended for direct inhalation -- and certainly not without full disclosure. This is not scare mongering or evil propaganda -- rather it is the best evidence currently available from science. It is inexcusable that some would make money while minimizing and obscuring this reality. Fine if your customers want to take your their chances -- but the unsuspecting should never have this foisted on them. It is nothing short of reckless endangerment -- and criminal.
 

Smellyagain

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I can't read the whole document for some reason. Asking me to pay 28$ to read it. The excerpt doesn't really show much. Also, it looks like it's from 1938?

I've read a more recent article that looked specifically at the diacetyl found in the smoke. Can't remember where I found it but it was linked somewhere on this forum a year or two ago.

Also, what are the current thoughts on air dilution that happens when we inhale the vapor? Liquid may be 1000ppm diketone but is then vaporized, diluted with air (reduction in ppm) as we inhale.

Vaping is waaaay different than breathing particulate diacetyl for 8 hours a day inside a factory.
 
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