FDA Godshall interview exposes how FDA deeming reg bans nearly all e-cig, how vapers can fight back

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AndriaD

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Based on the quote from Bill below it sounds like he believes that to be a conspiracy theory.

And it also sounds like he believes the attempts to tax vaping are due to lack of knowledge.
Or perhaps just partisan politics, or a mix of both.

I have a real hard time believing that.
I do hope he explains further.

It sounds to me like a child's "yeah, but..." "yeah, but..." "yeah, but..." :facepalm:

We can only elect whoever they trot out for us to vote for -- and no matter what they say when they're running, they're going to do just exactly whatever suits their pockets best, once they get in office, and to hell with the voters.

If we'd had a lot fewer nannies out there urging them to raise tobacco taxes, they might not have gotten so carried away with it, and might now not be so addicted to that money!

Andria
 

stevegmu

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It seems to me the hatred of smoking and cigarettes and the campaigns against them have transitioned over to electronic cigarettes. Those individuals and organizations responsible have done far more harm to vaping than they could ever do good. For the general public smoking and electronic cigarettes aren't so different. The actions of anti smoking organizations have created the climate we are in now. As I have stated many times, vaping will never be normalized in the US because smoking has been demonized. It will be treated the same as smoking- prohibitions on usage, restrictions on sales and taxes...
 

DC2

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It seems to me the hatred of smoking and cigarettes and the campaigns against them have transitioned over to electronic cigarettes. Those individuals and organizations responsible have done far more harm to vaping then they could ever do good. For the general public smoking and electronic cigarettes aren't so different. The actions of anti smoking organizations have created the climate we are in now. As I have stated many times, vaping will never be normalized in the US because smoking has been demonized. It will be treated the same as smoking- prohibitions on usage, restrictions on sales and taxes...
The difference is that smokers, for the most part, bent over and took it.
In large part because many of us tended to believe what they were telling us.

As vapers, we certainly should not be doing that anymore.
In fact, it seems to me we should be doing the opposite of bending over and taking it.
 

stevegmu

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The difference is that smokers, for the most part, bent over and took it.
In large part because many of us tended to believe what they were telling us.

As vapers, we certainly should not be doing that anymore.
In fact, it seems to me we should be doing the opposite of bending over and taking it.

It's too late. The argument against prohibitions can not be won- save the children and we just don't have long term studies yet. It is insurmountable. Decades of anti smoking sentiment can't be reversed.
It is time to start fresh, in Prague or Plzen. They don't hate smoking there- it is normal and e-nic is embraced. Thing is it really isn't about smoking or vaping at all, for me. The loss of freedom and choice goes far beyond smoking or electronic cigarettes- they are just symbols of what has happened and what will happen...
 

Kent C

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But even that wouldn't come close to reimbursing government expenditures since healthcare costs to treat smoking diseases were primarily caused by cigarettes that were bought and smoked five, ten, fifteen or more years ago (when prices were much lower than now).

This is basically one socialist concept to justify another one, implemented earlier. Without gov't taking over healthcare costs, then the 'government expenditures' on health care would be zero. And there would be no 'cigarettes paying their fair share' involved. And healthcare costs go down when a smoker dies and the costs to that point are nowhere near what they are after living a longer life, in terms of healthcare costs as well as more gov't expenditures on another socialist concept - social security.

But once you establish those socialist programs - the above, plus food stamps, ADC, low income housing, eco-policies, and perhaps even tuition-free college if a certain person is elected, ad nauseum, then you can control people and demonize them. Without those programs, people go about their own business and help others as had been the tradition in this country a lot longer than the socialist impositions.

This is the TC way of having their cake and eating it too (obesity, btw, has the same reduction in costs after death.) They want to be able to cite "480,000 tobacco related deaths", and at the same time say that healthcare costs skyrocket. And neither is the case.

------
On smoking and cost to gov't. From Brad Rodu:

Tobacco Truth: The Surprising Economic Effects of Smoking & Quitting

"With respect to federal health care, “Medicaid would see the largest savings over the 2013-2021 period—about $560 million,” while “Medicare would have the next-largest savings in the near term—about $250 million.”

"But the CBO also reported some expenses related to cessation: “By contrast, Social Security’s Old-Age and Survivors Insurance program, which pays retirement benefits, would experience the largest net increasein costs because of the policy. On net, outlays for Social Security would rise by about $150 million over the 2013-2021 period.”

"Medicaid/Medicare savings would exceed increased Social Security payments until 2025. After that, Social Security increases due to increased longevity would exceed Medicaid/Medicare savings.

"Not smoking is associated with increased longevity, which is associated with increased net costs for the health care system, rather than savings. "

Fewer Smokers Means Higher Taxpayer Costs, Study Finds - Forbes

"The negative effects would be financial. While the government makes more money from lower levels of smoking from 2013 to 2021 — a relatively paltry $730 million — after then the effects of greater longevity would start to overcome the savings from tobacco-related medical costs. Rising income tax revenue from healthier workers would mean the increase still served to reduce the deficit until around 2060, the CBO estimates. Then the deficit would start to get larger. [which means more taxes on even non-smokers!]

"Obviously, everybody would be better off if they quit smoking. What the CBO study shows is the litigation that showered such huge benefits on a few was based on the false premise that cigarettes cost taxpayers money."

http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/regulation/2014/12/regulation-v37n4-7.pdf

"There is strong consensus that people smoke less as the price
increases, with a price elasticity of –0.4 for adults and –0.65 for
adolescents.
—Stanton Glantz

An extensive literature has shown that in response to a 1 percent
increase in cigarette prices, overall cigarette consumption
among adults would fall by somewhere between 0.3 and 0.7
percent, with about half of the reduction being attributed to
the reduced number of current smokers and half attributed to
the reduced number of cigarettes consumed per smoker.
—Hai-Yen Sung, Wendy Max, and James Lightwood,
comment to U.S. Food and Drug Administration

"The hypothesis expressed in these quotes, that higher cigarette
taxes save a substantial number of lives and reduce health care
costs by reducing smoking, is central to the argument in support
of regulatory control of cigarettes through higher cigarette taxes."

...
"Total cigarette spending will go up by
$15.15 billion per year because of the tax and price increase. Now
assume that every person who quits smoking lives nine years
longer as a result (an assumption consistent with the academic
literature), so the tax increase results in 3.7 million extra life
years. At what cost did the tax achieve this gain in life years? If
we assume that the average smoker is 40 years old and lives until
69 (instead of 78), the total increase in expenditure as a result of
the tax increase is $439.4 billion (29 × $15.15 billion), or $119,000
per life-year. The $119,000 figure is above the $100,000 per life
year that is commonly used to decide whether a drug or medical
treatment is sufficiently cost-effective to be recommended for use.


Clearly, raising cigarette taxes is not the public health windfall
claimed by anti-smoking advocates."

 

nicnik

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Clearly, raising cigarette taxes is not the public health windfall
claimed by anti-smoking advocates."
It's another case of receiving money now in exchange for owing lots more later, as is the case with cashing in future MSA payments for a big debt later, by selling bonds. It's all about creating an illusion of financial responsibilty by creating a mess for future office holders (and the public).
 

nicnik

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Because I'd like to be able to find your excellent post above again as needed...
SEARCH: smoking health costs
Could you explain this?
BTW, I've noticed that since the ecf software change in the spring, google searches can't find posts from before the change nearly as easily. I haven't checked in a while, so if that situation has been fixed I'm unaware.
 

DC2

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Could you explain this?
BTW, I've noticed that since the ecf software change in the spring, google searches can't find posts from before the change nearly as easily. I haven't checked in a while, so if that situation has been fixed I'm unaware.
I put search words in so I can find the post again.
:)

There have been a lot of great posts over the years by well-informed folks.
I like to be able to find them and re-post them when appropriate.

There is one particular post by @Vocalek that I can never find though.
It's about how 20% of smokers might not EVER be able to go nicotine-free.

I wish I could find that one.
Because it would have come in handy many times.
:(
 
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Stosh

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Sin taxes are simply a way for the politicians to raise taxes without annoying too large of a percentage of the voters at one time.

Ever notice when there is an increase in the 'beer taxes' there will be no change in the 'distilled spirit' taxes....until the following year when it's simply reversed. Gas taxes get raised, so long as the fares aren't raised on mass transit, 1/2 the population is OK with it because it "doesn't affect me"...until next year when it's reversed.

Vapers and smokers are simply a small enough minority to be taxed while most see it as "doesn't affect me".

The pols are simply using a divide and conquer strategy.
 
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Kent C

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It's another case of receiving money now in exchange for owing lots more later, as is the case with cashing in future MSA payments for a big debt later, by selling bonds. It's all about creating an illusion of financial responsibilty by creating a mess for future office holders (and the public).

With gov't, it goes like this:

First - create a problem/crisis (or take advantage of one - "never let a crisis go to waste" Rahm Emanuel)
Second - create a solution to the problem
Third - the solution becomes the problem
Fourth - the 'solution' becomes a problem so another solution is needed because 'we didn't have enough money or the right people'
Fifth - 4th ad infinitum.
 

AndriaD

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I guess I'm having a dumb moment. Still confused. I should do more reading about using all the different features, though I do use the search function some.

If you insert a certain phrase or word group somewhere in the forum... then do a search for that phrase or word group... it shows up right away, top of the results, so you don't have to wade thru a bunch of what you *weren't* looking for. It's like a trail of breadcrumbs to find your way back.

Andria
 

nicnik

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If you insert a certain phrase or word group somewhere in the forum... then do a search for that phrase or word group... it shows up right away, top of the results, so you don't have to wade thru a bunch of what you *weren't* looking for. It's like a trail of breadcrumbs to find your way back.

Andria
OK, I get it. Yeah, that's how I do it, too. Sorry about my tendency to either over-complicate things in my head, or over-simplify.
 

englishmick

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The primary reason I've been advocating cigarette tax increases (since collaborating with PA Gov. Bob Casey in 1991 to raise PA's cig tax from $.18 to $.31/pack) is to hold cigarettes fiscally accountable for the enormous costs they impose on taxpayers.

Well put. This is often knocked as a sin tax, punishing people for doing something they like to do. But like you said later in this post, it costs the country $11 every time someone buys a pack of cigs.
 

Lessifer

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Well put. This is often knocked as a sin tax, punishing people for doing something they like to do. But like you said later in this post, it costs the country $11 every time someone buys a pack of cigs.
Being as I started smoking when I was 11 and stopped when I was 33, before developing any health conditions, the only person it cost anything when I bought a pack was me.
 
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