Info needed to Counteract doctor info about Oil into Lungs/Miners Disease? Wet Lungs? Japanese study debunked?

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ShelaghDB

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Hi, have looked everywhere unless I am missing it but I need some good information to counteract my doctors claims that the Oil we are ingesting can lead to a disease that I think he said Miners get? I might be wrong about the profession for by that point i was admittedly in the rolling of eyes stage but this has become an issue I feel needs to be overcome for without boring people with details, he has turned it into a huge issue. I looked here last night and could not find it but want to hopefully get it by today so I can present it Monday morning.

I recall he said something about it being ingested into the lungs and whichever profession he was referring to had it show up about 20 years later.
Does anyone know what it is I am referring to?

If so, is there any proof to the contrary that i can show him?

I did look on one thread here that had quite a few links but unfortunately I found all the links to be from 2010. I think it will be far more effective to hae the very latest research dates on this issue as I know that the comeback will be that due to its year of 2010, more research has been done since......and so on, so i I wish to predict beforehand what will come up and be ready hence, the latest research will be more effective.

I also heard something to the effect of "wet lungs". I might be wrong for i truly had phased out by this point but I think he was claiming this to be a second issue, not necessarily the same as the first but i might be wrong.

Assuming long time regulars here will be familiar with what it is I am looking for and can help me please, to find the needed documents.

Last but not least, the recent Japanese study I have been told was de-bunked. I coud use a link to that one as well IF it truly was debunked.

Thanking everyone in advance.
 

rolygate

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Hi, there is no need to worry about this.

It looks as if your doctor is clutching at straws here, or is a confirmed ANTZ (anti nicotine and tobacco zealot), in which case the facts will make no difference to his opinion; anyway, here are the facts just in case.

- Inhalation of 'PG' or 'glycerine' or both cannot cause lipoid pneumonia. I placed these names in inverted commas as they are inaccurate common names that do not fully represent their nature - the full common names are propylene glycol and glycerol. By the -ol suffix we can see they are alcohols, and it is regarded as impossible for inhalation of alcohols to cause LP, since it is caused by inhalation of oils.

- Their full chemical names (or one version of them) are (PG) = propane 1,2 diol; and glycerol = propane 2,3 triol. Again, see the alcohol designator.

- If an incident of an alcohol causing LP could be identified, the doctor who made the discovery would become feted. You would see medical journal articles, case studies, and above all: some evidence. It has never happened, and there is no evidence. An article in the National Enquirer with wild claims is not evidence.

- Ecig refills use PG and glycerol as the excipients. PG has been inhaled in asthma inhalers for decades without serious consequences (the minor issues include drying of the upper respiratory tract). Because of this, pharmaceutical companies who make medical inhalers are moving to a PG/glycerol mix, or all-glycerol - exactly as we use in ecigs. See Dow Chemical (esp. Dow Optim) for the details. If your doctor is suggesting that asthma inhalers cause lipoid pneumonia, then clearly he has taken leave of his senses.

- PG is also used for the carrier (excipient) in the nebulisers used by lung transplant patients. Taken together with the multiple decades of use in asthma and other inhalers, it is clear that these materials are safely inhaled by those in the most fragile health and with the most serious lung conditions.

There simply is no evidence for any association with lipoid pneumonia at all. No one has ever presented detail cell pathology that identified lipoid pneumonia as the condition involved when ex-smokers who had begun to vape presented with lung issues (or, equally, for asthma patients or lung transplant patients). Your doctor can consult several experts on these issues if he is so inclined - we can put you in touch if required. For example:
Prof R Polosa - pulmonary consultant, airway obstructive diseases specialist
Prof M Siegel - anti-tobacco specialist
Dr K Farsalinos - consultant cardiologist, cardiac imaging specialist
Prof J Britton - world authority on tobacco control, chair of the Royal College of Physicians' tobacco group
Dr CV Phillips - THR scientist with two decades of experience of such issues
Prof I Burstyn - leading toxicologist who reviewed nearly 10,000 measurements in order to complete his exhaustive analysis of ecig toxicology, regarded as the authoritative work

Also see what they have written on this and related issues, for example:
Farsalinos: Doctors, open your textbooks: glycerol CANNOT cause lipoid pneumonia (but other things can)
Siegel: The Rest of the Story: Tobacco and Alcohol News Analysis and Commentary: German Cancer Research Center Lies about Health Effects of Electronic Cigarettes to Scare Users and Unfairly Influence EU Directive
Britton: "If all UK smokers switched to ecigs, we would save five million lives just among those alive today, just in the UK."
Burstyn: BMC Public Health | Abstract | Peering through the mist: systematic review of what the chemistry of contaminants in electronic cigarettes tells us about health risks
http://publichealth.drexel.edu/SiteData/docs/ms08/f90349264250e603/ms08.pdf

It is worth remembering that there are at least 25 million ecig users worldwide, ecigs were first sold in the West (in the UK) in 2005, and obviously we therefore have well over 50 million user-years experience with them (probably approaching 100 million user-years @Q1 2015). There are no confirmed cases of LP in any vaper. Even if there had been 10 confirmed cases, with full presentation of case details and cell pathology in order that any other condition or cause could be absolutely eliminated, then 10 cases in 100 million user-years is of no consequence - and especially since we are told that up to half of those millions of ex-smokers would have died anyway if they had continued to smoke.

Again, just to put this in the correct context: there are certainly millions of ex-smokers globally who have quit using an ecig, many of whom would not have quit at all otherwise. Let's assume there are only 5 million such ex-smokers (it is likely to be many more than this). So let's say hypothetically that 10 die from lipoid pneumonia. As 2.5 million would have died had they continued to smoke (if the figures we are given are correct), then clearly the issue is invisible and of absolutely zero importance.

However to make sure this argument is balanced, I personally (and no one else, as far as I am aware) believe there is an elevated risk for standard pneumonia in vapers who consume 100% VG refills and who are ex-smokers and who suffer from emphysema or COPD stage 3 or 4. This is because smokers with irreparably damaged lungs are at risk of developing pneumonia, and an all-VG refill is (in my opinion) not the best choice for such vapers, as they should inhale at least some PG (for its bactericidal, virucidal and hygroscopic qualities.) Of course, such persons should be using another THR product in any case, such as Snus. Emphysema patients continuing to inhale foreign materials is not really a sensible course of action.

Please note that there are hundreds of clinical trials, studies and papers on ecig use - a search just on PubMed brings up several hundred for example. Cherry-picking 1 out of 200 because it gives you the answer you like, even though it presents no evidence at all but simply an opinion, is not science - it is voodoo or something else, but not science.


'Miners' lung'
It is difficult to see how the lung diseases considered as the occupational diseases of miners can be connected to ecig use. These diseases are normally reported to be silicosis and pneumonicosis or pneumoconiosis, resulting from decades of inhaling high quantities of mineral dust. Prof Burstyn has not located any such connection.

However this could be some sort of confusion with 'paraffin lung', the fire-eater's occupational disease. It is caused by inhaling mineral oil vapour, is also called golden pneumonia, is properly called lipoid pneumonia, and is discussed above. A single incident of alcohol inhalation causing LP would be a world first, and has not occurred to date.


Japanese study
Again, there was a media frenzy over nothing. See Farsalinos:
E-cigarette aerosol contains 6 times LESS formaldehyde than tobacco cigarette smoke

Note: the UK's Daily Mail originally published an article stating this study found e-cigarettes contain 10 times more carcinogens than tobacco cigarettes. They were then forced to publish a retraction, and have now deleted the article.


Wet Lung
ARDS or pulmonary oedema ('wet lung') can be caused by severe injury, infection, or aspirating highly toxic chemicals such as in poison gas warfare.

It is interesting to see your doctor bring this up as it is the first example of this accusation levelled at vaping that I have seen. It seems to me that with over 50 million user-years experience of vaping, we would know more about this if it were any concern.

Nevertheless I will ask Prof Polosa to comment on this, in case there has been an incredibly rare case of it among the 25 million vapers worldwide (even rarer than the the LP accusation, for which there are only 3 reports) and it has not been widely reported. Because of its extreme rarity, if any such report has been made, and the normal cause being inhalation of large quantities of toxic chemicals (it is what wartime gas attack victims die of after inhaling mustard gas, chlorine gas etc), it is difficult to attach any significance to this suggestion.


----------------------------------------
This last issue is probably a very good guide to your doctor's position on these matters: the science is irrelevant as he appears to be some kind of fanatic.

Probably about the best case I have seen where finding a slightly more sane doctor would be helpful. Please look up the word 'iatrogenesis'. Equating vaping with trench warfare or 30 years of smoking cannot be regarded as normal behaviour and this doctor may even need professional help.
 

edyle

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Hi, have looked everywhere unless I am missing it but I need some good information to counteract my doctors claims that the Oil we are ingesting can lead to a disease that I think he said Miners get? I might be wrong about the profession for by that point i was admittedly in the rolling of eyes stage but this has become an issue I feel needs to be overcome for without boring people with details, he has turned it into a huge issue. I looked here last night and could not find it but want to hopefully get it by today so I can present it Monday morning.

I recall he said something about it being ingested into the lungs and whichever profession he was referring to had it show up about 20 years later.
Does anyone know what it is I am referring to?

If so, is there any proof to the contrary that i can show him?

I did look on one thread here that had quite a few links but unfortunately I found all the links to be from 2010. I think it will be far more effective to hae the very latest research dates on this issue as I know that the comeback will be that due to its year of 2010, more research has been done since......and so on, so i I wish to predict beforehand what will come up and be ready hence, the latest research will be more effective.

I also heard something to the effect of "wet lungs". I might be wrong for i truly had phased out by this point but I think he was claiming this to be a second issue, not necessarily the same as the first but i might be wrong.

Assuming long time regulars here will be familiar with what it is I am looking for and can help me please, to find the needed documents.

Last but not least, the recent Japanese study I have been told was de-bunked. I coud use a link to that one as well IF it truly was debunked.

Thanking everyone in advance.

Did your doctor actually say "Oil" ?

You can't refute what you *think* your doctor said.
 

ShelaghDB

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Mar 9, 2015
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rolygate


Thank you very much! I am going to go though all of this in the morning.
As I said I am not going to bore anyone with the details but suffice to say hes a doctor here with a lot of power but I had always considered him very open minded until he brought this up and he just would not shut up. I was getting very angry near the end but if it were just me, I could go to another doctor but its the knowledge of how many he may hurt with this uninformed attitude. I do feel however that if presented with up to-date accurate information there is room for him to alter his attitude. I have never known him to be a rabid anti-smoker type but its clear he needs some help.

edyle He involved a patient that had been about to start Vaping herself and scared her so much I cant be positive at this point if it was he or the patient that did. One did, hence why I myself have used that word. Even if it were the patient and not the doctor, he turned her around so quickly and rabidly even if it were here and not he, I would suspect she was repeating what she had been told by him.

To be honest I dont believe it is very important at this point what word or term he used but rather that he is under the belief, like miners..that the same danger persistes perhaps 20 years from now ( i may not be alive at that point myself however)...although I dont remember why the association to miners came up but I was hit with so much in a short time, short of recording it verbatim I cant be positive of what he said exactly.
Hence, why I asked if anyone knew what I was referring to in terms of miners or workers in a very similar field could have got from their work that simulates what he believed to be in vapour, perhaps?

In any event, I just want to do my due dilligence and be better equipped to answer him as I havent any doubt this has not yet been put to rest and it will com eup again on Monday.
I do wish to give him the benefit of the doubt and hope that he had only JUST looked into it and just needs to be pointed in the right direction.


Thank you and if anyone else has anything to add, feel free although it looks as if I have a lot to absorb, and then be able to discuss it somewhat intellectually within 36 hours,
 
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ShelaghDB

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One of the reasons I wish to push this is because I have gone to him for years but over the past 5, he has become quite involved heavily with Harm Reduction patients of varying drug problems.

Yes I suspect the interest is more of a fiscal nature rather than one of empathy but suffice to say there are a lot of smokers in such an enviornment who will not benefit from his rather poor attitude, not to mention its somewhat hypocritical to say the least, to claim what he has, when his practise is moving in that direction, at least with regards to Harm Reduction.

I have in fact sent a life long friend to him that has recently developed an addiction to pain killers after a car accident and I want to make sure he keeps it in check.

If he were not involved in Harm Reduction strategy I might be less inclined to push the issue.

Thank you again for your time and care in posting your post and links to me.
 
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rolygate

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Perhaps he is referring to inhalation of silica dust. Maybe this is a problem in some types of mining.

It's true that a microscopic quantity of silica will be inhaled from vaping any head with a silica wick, which is one reason people re-wick with rayon or kohgendo cotton.

The thing is, inhaling 2 nanogrammes of silica in 10 years from vaping does not really compare with half a kilo in 10 years from mining (or whatever). The toxic effect of anything is a dose x exposure time calc, you can't get sick from a microscopic dose that can hardly even be measured*. Everything we breathe, eat and drink is contaminated with toxins in microscopic doses, and it doesn't have any measurable reduction of life expectancy vs your urban peers until you are exposed to large doses over decades, as in mining or smoking.

Living up a mountainside and breathing pure air and living on spring water, carrots, berries and the occasional rabbit is another matter - fair enough. You might well live another 10 years, if you don't commit suicide first. There's a reason people live in cities: they trade a decade of life expectancy for a far better lifestyle. That's also a lesson people in public health need to learn. There is a cost/benefit trade-off to everything.


* Unless it is with reference to the most toxic materials on the planet, which are many thousands of times more toxic than anything else. Plutonium and ricin are in this category (even polonium is not as toxic as this). If someone is suggesting that vaping is equivalent to inhaling plutonium, they probably need to take a vacation, in a secure facility.
 

ShelaghDB

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My husband who was being checked out at the time by him claimed not to be listening when I asked him 10x but he just now says that he also mentioned cooks. Something that cooks come down with as well many years later.....I honestly was too angry at the time to listen properly but got the general gist.
My vehicle was stolen 24 hours earlier and I had had a phone call about it being recovered within an hour of it missing, just before going into his office so my mind was on other things at that point in time.


But it appears from many of the answers here that you have hit on the correct topics I can counteract this with.
If it were just about me, I would not waste my time but I have great empathy for some of his patients that have already been judged and cast away by society yet the few I have spoken to seem to have very good hearts and dont deserve to be led incorrectly away from a product that could save their lives.
I've noticed a couple on the corner near his office smoking rather furiously whenever I have popped in. A few have asked me about it so I am guessing he viewed my Vaping as the root of their questions and felt the need to put an end to it quickly.

There's a reason people live in cities: they trade a decade of life expectancy for a far better lifestyle. That's also a lesson people in public health need to learn. There is a cost/benefit trade-off to everything.

Good Point. I must say I never quite looked at it that way myself.

Maybe he think you're huffing paint fumes......incredible....

No. Hes smarter than that.
I've asked a few patients and they seem to be there for pain medication addction brought on by accidents that have led to abuse.
Hence why I sent a woman I know to him.
But the few I have spoken to appear to be in their 40's and up so at a time where they are giving thought to smoking cessation programs. They deserve the truth.


In any event I think I have enough here to go on and thank you again for all of your help here.

As for the cook in the kitchen theory of his, maybe thats where i heard the term "oil" from but I dont think I have to qualify his exact fear but there is more than enough here to hopefully open his eyes and mind.

But one of the drug patients who had asked me quite a bit about Vaping and who went in before I did, came out and must have had issues with OCD as she repeated over and over her fear of wet lungs. As she hadnt mentioned it once before going into the office but then became rather obsessed by it afterwards, combined with what he said to me, I had to assume she had picked that up from him.

Its also possible that I am dealing with a doctor that could possibly be a megalomaniac and doesnt want anyone other than him "helping" his "patients" although it wasnt an issue, the Vaping but he made it one. I am aware that this might be partly his reason for suddenly taking a negative stance so perhaps you might understand why i feel it is an issue that cant be let go of.
 
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rolygate

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Dr CV Phillips* has commented on the strange dichotomy existing within some medics: they are fully supportive of harm reduction in everything except smoking. I can't see how they support this, but it is widespread. If someone supports use of less harmful drugs on prescription to reduce harm to addicts and reduce crime, and they support condoms, and seatbelts, and needle exchanges, and low-alcohol beer and so on - then why not Snus and ecigs for smokers? It seems the problem here is more likely to be a personal or financial one - perhaps the doctor gets paid for smoking cessation services but not for patients giving up via 'unapproved' methods.

* Anti-THR Lies and related topics


I see what you mean by the cooks' illness allusion - this refers to acrolein, a toxic constituent of smoke. When a pan of oil is burnt, the terrible pungent smell is acrolein. It is a carcinogen, so no doubt it is possible for cooks working in very poor conditions, with ineffective air extraction, to develop COPD or even lung cancer after some decades of exposure.

It is possible to produce acrolein from an ecig by burning up the hardware deliberately in order to produce smoke. Obviously, this would be difficult or impossible to inhale. Nevertheless some unscrupulous researchers have produced studies that claim they measured significant quantities of acrolein in ecig vapour, presumably for the huge funding that the pharmaceutical industry supplies for anyone who will attack vaping. One well-known liar of this type receives over $6 million a year, so the rewards for those who will lie for money are substantial - they can and do become multi-millionaires.

University professors of chemistry have been unable to produce any significant quantity of acrolein in normal ecig vapour, and therefore this issue is of no importance whatsoever to me. It may be relevant for some extreme vapers, but that is not the majority.

Your doctor friend appears willing to take the most outlandish accusations levelled at vaping, then multiply them by 100 and claim some validity for his position. To describe this as unreasonable isn't really sufficient.
 

ShelaghDB

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You guys are fabulous. I really have to tell you all that.

Thank you for your passion and great willingness to help.
Thank you for your intellect.

Im afraid my social networking exerience with Vapers for the most part hasnt been particularly pleasant until this forum.
I understand that this is not a reflection so much on Vapers as it is on social networking as a whole in todays world but I have run across so many that i just want to slap silly.
The"know it all" "alpha dog vaper", I learned that you just let them bark but every now and then you gotta hit em on the nose with a rolled up news paper.
But it becomes monotonous after a period of time.

Its a pleasure to run across a forum full of informative people that are different than a whole crew of alpha dogs barking at everyone :)

So I shall take all that is so far here and deal with it.
Anymore is always welcome but i dont want to become to convuluted or, perhaps complicate it with too many directions or it will lose its impact.

If you can open the eyes to one, that one opens the eyes to 2 others and so on it goes.
What I find most interesting however, is the study that Rolygate just posted regarding the dichotomy that exists within some medics, specifically those supportive of harm reduction therapies.
This is exactly that and perhaps hes not that uncommon after all.

As for your theory regardig the fiscal loss potential, you might be right as Champix is regularly given out on prescription.
I myself went though Champix twice.
The first time was successful in that it did take away the physical withdrawl but not the mental addiction so I began again a few days later.
I was on Champix the second time a year or so later when I picked up my first e-cigarette and successfully quit.
But I dont give credit to the Champix so much as I do the e-cigarette.

But thats irrelevant. The point being that he does prescribe Champix and naturaly they do make money from writing prescriptions but I sure would hate to discover that it ruled all decisions in this matter.

Anyhow, thank you all once again. I appreciate your help in ways far more than you might possibly even know! ;)
 

KattMamma

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My PCP is an antibiotics pusher - every time I see him, he says something like "I'm not sure what this is but we can see if antibiotics will help" which always gets a rant from me about how stupid that is. He gets sheepish then and says, "ok what do you want to do" -- I feel like I'M THE DOCTOR but I just need him to sign the prescriptions. *sigh*

I think most doctors aren't nearly as smart as they think they are. And I think the general public gives them too much credit just because they have the dr title. How do you know your doctor didn't graduate at the BOTTOM of his class? (somebody's doctor did - think about that lol)
 

rolygate

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Prof Polosa has replied to my request for further information on any association of vaping with 'wet lung'.

He reports that, although pulmonary adverse events may be expected with intensive volume vaping, he has not heard of any events of pulmonary oedema / water in the lungs associated with vaping. The ECLAT study he helped conduct reported no incidence of 'wet lung' although many respondents appeared to have concerns about this type of problem.

As a result he reports that no one discusses this condition any more.


--------------
Presumably, with so many millions of user-years experience of vaping that have now taken place, any connection with pulmonary oedema would be visible. So I am happy to report that, as far as we know at this time, vaping is not as bad as trench warfare with poison gas attacks - just in case that wasn't clear :))
 

BigEgo

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Obviously it has been many years since this doctor was in organic chemistry class in medical school, so let's not be too hard on him. In any case, glycerol is not an oil -- it is a polyol (Alchohol) and is fully soluble in water (unlike an oil).

If you get lipoid pneumonia from e-cigs, it ain't going to be from the solvents (PG/VG). The only other possibility would be oil flavorings which would be unheard of by any reputable vendor.

Will there be complications from e-cigs 20 years from now? Maybe. Possibly. Or maybe not. We don't know as there (obviously) have been no longitudinal clinical studies done yet. However, any time you inhale a foreign substance in the lungs there is always a risk of complications. Vaping is about harm reduction, not complete harm elimination.
 

somdcomputerguy

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    Vaping is about harm reduction, not complete harm elimination.

    Well put! :thumb: Although I would've not used 'complete', IMO it is kind of superfluous. "Vaping is about harm reduction, not harm elimination" is a great phrase. One that will definitely be added to my 'pro-vape armory'.
     
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