Lg he4 18650

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drippaboi

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I actually just got a pair of these from the Vapor dna B&M. They were out of HE2's and these are what they recommended for my IPV3 over purple efest. I cant find any real info on them though other than they are some how an improvement on the HE2

New yellow wrap is definitely an upgrade!

Serious-mode now:
The spec-sheets from LG are almost identical for the HE2 and HE4, the HE4 is claimed to be 1gm lighter. I saw a product description from one ebay vendor claiming the HE4 stays cooler under load compared to the HE2 ... but that is a claim from an ebay vendor so who knows.
 
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Froth

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I would imagine LG knows the specifications of their own batteries and they spec them out at 20 amp max.....

http://www.protovapor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/20141014-LRB-PS-18650HE4.pdf
20 amp max continuous. Don't leave the best part out.

Edit: If the LG HE4 truly is an upgrade to the HE2 then it would be within the realm of reason to believe it is capable of 35A pulse discharge, the Revision 1 spec sheet for the LG HE2 shows a really nice 35A graph - http://www.powerstream.com/p/LG 18650HE2 Technical Information.pdf so it is entirely possible that the HE4 shares these characteristics. This is all speculation at the moment, but LG would have no reason behind making a battery of the same capacity with the same chemistry that performed worse than something they already make and is already on the market.
 
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Stosh

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20 amp max continuous. Don't leave the best part out.

Edit: If the LG HE4 truly is an upgrade to the HE2 then it would be within the realm of reason to believe it is capable of 35A pulse discharge, the Revision 1 spec sheet for the LG HE2 shows a really nice 35A graph - http://www.powerstream.com/p/LG 18650HE2 Technical Information.pdf so it is entirely possible that the HE4 shares these characteristics. This is all speculation at the moment, but LG would have no reason behind making a battery of the same capacity with the same chemistry that performed worse than something they already make and is already on the market.

Take a close look at the graph, at 35 amps discharge the voltage drops to 3.25 volts after about 100 mah, it's like the charge life of a 510 stick battery. And their spec sheet lists max discharge current at 20 amps, guess that's what they consider safe.
 

Froth

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Take a close look at the graph, at 35 amps discharge the voltage drops to 3.25 volts after about 100 mah, it's like the charge life of a 510 stick battery. And their spec sheet lists max discharge current at 20 amps, guess that's what they consider safe.
What you're seeing is battery sag under load, not a lack of capacity at 35A. At 35A the battery sags to 3.5v on the very first fire, since the graph is showing the batteries under a constant drain it never shows the battery recovering to go back above the sag voltage after the drain, which could easily be read as a lack of capacity at that rating. However, all high drain batteries show this same characteristic under high drain load, even the mighty VTC series batteries. http://www.powerstream.com/p/us18650vtc4.pdf Note that the VTC4 drops to below 3.5V before it ever reaches even 200mah of use, however we all know through countless hours of usage that the VTC4 WILL perform at 30A for much longer than 1-200mah of use, this is because of battery sag under high drain.

You seem particularly determined to leave out the "constant" word when you say 20 amp max, any special reason? Constant drain is a whole different animal than pulse drain, once the masses realize that we might have less misinformation spread randomly for no reason.

While I'm on the subject, are you aware that the "mighty" VTC5 is only rated to 20A constant by Sony? Does that mean it's only ever going to be used for 20A output? Better start telling everyone.
- http://www.powerstream.com/p/us18650vtc5-vtc5.pdf
 

Stosh

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.....You seem particularly determined to leave out the "constant" word when you say 20 amp max, any special reason? Constant drain is a whole different animal than pulse drain, once the masses realize that we might have less misinformation spread randomly for no reason.

Not at all, a constant drain maximum amperage is the only specification that is set to an industry standard, it's the only spec that actually counts. Pulse ratings can vary by whatever the company feels their battery can handle, absolutely no standardization and thus useless.
 

Ryedan

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You seem particularly determined to leave out the "constant" word when you say 20 amp max, any special reason? Constant drain is a whole different animal than pulse drain, once the masses realize that we might have less misinformation spread randomly for no reason.

Maximum continuous amp discharge data is what all the big battery manufacturers publish. Pulse ratings, if published, are as I understand it designed to be used for calculating motor start up max amps over time, and circuit fuse design. AFAIK all Li-ion batteries can be taken to twice the continuous amp discharge for some time period. The amount of time at a given amp number is rarely stated though and the number goes down as the battery ages and the internal resistance goes up. This is true for both continuous and pulse ratings. The continuous discharge can also be taken higher than the rating, but you will generally want to cool the batteries for this.

It's accepted that when we say a battery is a 20A battery we're talking about continuous discharge. If a supplier claims 35 or 40A for a 20A battery and does not specify "pulse", that's dangerous because someone could run it in a mod in pulses at 70-80A and the person would not know they are at four times the continuous rating. IMO the companies who market 35A and 40A 18650 batteries that are really 20A batts without specifying 'pulse' are only in it for a quick buck.

Then there are the other issues with running a battery at 2X continuous. This will very likely cause the battery to vent if the button stays on, plus as I said the safe pulse time period at X amps goes down as the battery degrades and also as ambient temperature rises. Yes, the number for continuous discharge goes down too, but if someone is running pulses at the continuous rating their batteries will take much more degradation and abuse before they have safety issues.

For me it's all about safety. People will push things and just see how it goes. Most of the time if things are not pushed too far they go well. However running at 2X continuous amp discharge with a battery that has seen 200 charge cycles, has always been discharged at 1X continuous and was recently discharged to 2.4V a few times and was once hard shorted for a couple of seconds is not something I would do because I consider it too much of a safety risk. So how do you qualify this, how do you explain it to people? I can't, there are just too many variables and conditions and not enough data to accurately quantify it all. However, not exceeding the continuous amp rating, people will vape about as safely as they can.

Now if someone wants to push their battery harder than this, that's their decision. Hopefully they understand the increased risks and what they need to do to mitigate that. But it's not something I can in good conscience tell people is a safe practice.
 
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jwag1973

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Ryedan and Stosh pretty much have it right. The maximum discharge current isn't simply a recommendation, it's what the manufacturer through many hours of research feel is a safe rating. Keep in mind most, if any batteries weren't designed to be inches from your face at a high discharge rate. Ohms law and manufacturers recommendation's will keep you as safe as possible. If you choose to go beyond that, the repercussions are at your own risk.
 
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Froth

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Ryedan and Stosh pretty much have it right. The maximum discharge current isn't simply a recommendation, it's what the manufacturer through many hours of research feel is a safe rating. Keep in mind, most batteries aren't designed to be inches from your face at a high discharge rate. Ohms law and manufacturers recommendation's will keep you as safe as possible. If you choose to go beyond that, the repercussions are at your own risk.
I started all of this nonsense because of exactly what you just did, you didn't say "continuous discharge" if you're going to treat it as something really important at very least understand what you're saying when you say it or what it may come across as when you don't say it. When you're talking about limits you need to be specific. Yes, the manufacturer has rated the battery cell at 20A maximum for continuous discharge.

Continuous discharge in the battery industry is defined as discharging the cell from 100% completely charged all the way to cut-off voltage at the same load for the entirety of the discharge. Say we're using 20A as the discharge load, once the cell gets below ~3.5v standing voltage under that load is when a majority of the heat is generated, this heat is what causes the cell to degrade and possibly vent. As most people with battery knowledge know, if you externally cool them you can easily push the limits to continuous x 1.5 or even further, heat is the enemy of the continuous drain rating.

Not at all, a constant drain maximum amperage is the only specification that is set to an industry standard, it's the only spec that actually counts. Pulse ratings can vary by whatever the company feels their battery can handle, absolutely no standardization and thus useless.
The issue I find with the continuous rating in respect to vaping is the majority of users with 18650 mods don't allow the voltage to drop below 3.5V standing voltage, especially those people that push the absolute limits of the battery. This means they don't get anywhere near the area of battery use that produces the most heat, the "stressed" area. Furthermore, there aren't even really many standards in respect to continuous drain rating either, cut-off voltage varies between manufacturers, some go as low as 2.0V and some as high as 2.8V which can have a drastic change on the temperature the cells reach under load. There really are very few standards in the battery industry, which is why I believe it is more important to go off of real world experience.
 

Stosh

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I started all of this nonsense because of exactly what you just did, you didn't say "continuous discharge" if you're going to treat it as something really important at very least understand what you're saying when you say it or what it may come across as when you don't say it. When you're talking about limits you need to be specific. Yes, the manufacturer has rated the battery cell at 20A maximum for continuous discharge.


The issue I find with the continuous rating in respect to vaping is the majority of users with 18650 mods don't allow the voltage to drop below 3.5V standing voltage, especially those people that push the absolute limits of the battery. This means they don't get anywhere near the area of battery use that produces the most heat, the "stressed" area. Furthermore, there aren't even really many standards in respect to continuous drain rating either, cut-off voltage varies between manufacturers, some go as low as 2.0V and some as high as 2.8V which can have a drastic change on the temperature the cells reach under load. There really are very few standards in the battery industry, which is why I believe it is more important to go off of real world experience.

There's only a few standards but they are very specific.....
Standard 1642 - Standard for Lithium Batteries | UL Standards
http://www.intertek.com/uploadedFiles/Intertek/Divisions/Commercial_and_Electrical/Media/PDF/Battery/Intertek-Battery-Certification-Webinar-Presentation-11-15-11.pdf

Understand that amperage and wattage are the results of a voltage being applied to a LOAD, and understand heat is produced whenever a high drain, high amperage condition is used - not just at specific voltages. Understand cut-off voltages pertain more to a battery's MAH rating than to it's maximum amperage.

I do value my real world experience that I've acquired in the 50 years since I first learned Ohm's Law in a classroom setting.
 

Ryedan

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Thanks for the links Stosh :thumb:. From there I found the UL 1642 standard for Li-ion battery safety which I have never read before.

I found section 10.1 on short testing interesting. They use a load of 0.06 - 0.10 ohms and there are some people who vape in that range!

OTOH, they don't talk about max amp rating standards. I've looked for that information before and couldn't find it.
 

Ryedan

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Continuous discharge in the battery industry is defined as discharging the cell from 100% completely charged all the way to cut-off voltage at the same load for the entirety of the discharge.

Continuous discharge is done with a variable load that increases to keep the amp draw constant as battery voltage drops, similar to how the third piece of equipment here works.

Say we're using 20A as the discharge load, once the cell gets below ~3.5v standing voltage under that load is when a majority of the heat is generated, this heat is what causes the cell to degrade and possibly vent. As most people with battery knowledge know, if you externally cool them you can easily push the limits to continuous x 1.5 or even further, heat is the enemy of the continuous drain rating.

Is 'standing voltage' no-load voltage? In a mechanical mod, the most current will be drawn when the battery is fully charged and the voltage is the highest as per Ohm's law. Amp draw will go down from there as the voltage goes down and the amount of heat developed per second goes down as well.

In a regulated VW mod, the mod will output the set wattage so it draws more amps from the battery as battery voltage goes down and so will create the most heat when the battery is empty. The same is true with VV, but in this case the mod maintains set voltage.

The issue I find with the continuous rating in respect to vaping is the majority of users with 18650 mods don't allow the voltage to drop below 3.5V standing voltage, especially those people that push the absolute limits of the battery. This means they don't get anywhere near the area of battery use that produces the most heat, the "stressed" area.

Hopefully what I said above will help you better understand how battery voltage affects amp draw in different mods :)
 
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Froth

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That intertek webinar was an awesome read, thanks for that link Stosh! In this case I'm going to shut up and let the more knowledgeable people put the facts up, very clear that I am outmatched! I learned a long time ago that you've got to admit to being wrong to learn to be right.

Some times I respond in a manner that would suggest that everyone knows what is going on in my head, when not even I know what goes on in there most of the time! I'm no general electrician, I'm translating a lot of my technical training from when I worked for Toyota on their Hybrid systems into to vape world and at times it shows. Thanks for the smack back to reality. ;)

P.s. - In my own defense when I was talking about personal experience I was specifically referring to "supersubohm" vaping experience and not general electrical knowledge, pretty much all of my vaping experience these days is with mechanical mods built below 0.20 ohms and 18650 batteries, I've been doing it for over a year now and I've not had any real issues to report. As a matter of fact, of the 20 18650 batteries I own, only one has ever died(LG HE2) and it just stopped holding a charge after ~140 cycles in the charger being used every day at 20A+
 

Stosh

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Hopefully the "supersubohm" using mech mods will slowly die out with the advent of 150+ watt regulated mods, with voltage and amperage limits built in, able to provide the heat without the risk. Seems the newest ones even have high temp detection and temp control, high tech will win out.

Re: personal experience, consider the statistical analysis....if there are a million subohm vapers on mech mods and 0.01% have a bad experience, that means there are a hundred people running around with third degree burns and a drip tip permanently logged in their nasel cavities....:(

If people like to sky dive, drag race, downhill ski racing and otherwise engage in risky behavior, have at it, know the real risks, understand the necessary safety precautions and go for broke!!
 
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Froth

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If people like to sky dive, drag race, downhill ski racing and otherwise engage in risky behavior, have at it, know the real risks, understand the necessary safety precautions and go for broke!!
I build 1000+ HP race cars where I work, I guess this is where I get the drive to push the limits with basically everything I ever do. 150W box mods have their place, but I don't like the form factor of a large box at all. Just like there are still people in this world that prefer a good quality standard transmission to an automatic there will most likely always be someone who prefers to vape 18650 mechanical mods at/over the hard limits versus a box mod.
 

Gummy Bare

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Nice read guy's.... probably have to read it a second time seeing the amount of good I info in here. I arrived at this thread as I just got some LG HE4's and did a quick site search to see how people were liking them. To be honest, I didn't see any specs before buying these online (real specs I mean, the "claimed" specs of course we're listed). I just figured they were the version 2 of the HE2's so to speak, and I've been playing with some HE2'S for 4 months or so. Other than the color of the wrapper, text, and the weight, they look identical.

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Ryedan

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Nice read guy's.... probably have to read it a second time seeing the amount of good I info in here. I arrived at this thread as I just got some LG HE4's and did a quick site search to see how people were liking them. To be honest, I didn't see any specs before buying these online (real specs I mean, the "claimed" specs of course we're listed). I just figured they were the version 2 of the HE2's so to speak, and I've been playing with some HE2'S for 4 months or so. Other than the color of the wrapper, text, and the weight, they look identical.

I think you're right about them being a very minor change to the HE2 Gummy Bare. Here's a spec sheet from LG.
 

Gummy Bare

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I think you're right about them being a very minor change to the HE2 Gummy Bare. Here's a spec sheet from LG.
Yeah, I was kinda hoping for a bigger upgrade in specs so to speak. Am I reading that correct, that the discharge end voltage is 2.5 volts? Does that mean you can discharge them down to as far as 2.5 volts safely each time if you wanted?
 
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