Looking for any additives that cut throat irritation

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bwh79

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I use the old ejuice me up app, I have 100% VG Nic base, Smooth salts from NN. In ejuice me up, I set it to nicotine strenth 1 mg Nic for 10 ML of liquid. Is that the equivalent of 10% now a days, in the way things are measured? The reason I ask is because I'm looking at a bottle of Milkman I bought that says 3 MG nic for a 30 mL bottle.

Nic content is in milligrams per milliliter. Not per bottle. "3mg" is the equivalent of 0.3% by volume. It should technically read "3mg/ml," but retail juice is often mislabeled in this way under the assumption that the customer "just knows" what it means already.

What exact product did you buy from NN, and at what concentration are you using it in your finished liquid?
 

cassandraschild

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Nic content is in milligrams per milliliter. Not per bottle. "3mg" is the equivalent of 0.3% by volume. It should technically read "3mg/ml," but retail juice is often mislabeled in this way under the assumption that the customer "just knows" what it means already.

What exact product did you buy from NN, and at what concentration are you using it in your finished liquid?

I am likely explaining myself incorrectly, so here is a screenshot of what im doing. Also, from NN it was the 100% Nic 100% VG base Smooth Nicotine Salts. This is the current stuff I'm using, but I have used other brands too.
Untitled.png
 
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cassandraschild

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Also , I decided to test @440BB 's idea of going flavor free. I started with pure VG, nothing else. I still noticed a small amount of irritation. So I decided to try 100% VG with 12 MG of Nic just to see if there was a difference in irritation. At first the TH was pretty strong and it definately was uncomfortable. Oddly, after about 5 draws, I noticed a semi sweet taste in the back of my throat, and it feels like there is suddenly a lot more mucus in my throat. As that taste and mucus increased, I noticed the sensation of discomfort decreasing. The only issue is that I havent vaped in about 10 minutes now, but I still feel some discomfort even now (and im pretty sure the source of the discomfort is my tonsils, not my throat in specific. While I have had tonsil stones in the past, I know I don't have any now as I was recently checked by an ENT before I decided to head down this path again).
 
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bwh79

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I am likely explaining myself incorrectly
Yes, and when dealing with toxic substances, that's a really big problem. You need need need to wrap your brain around the fact that % and mg/ml are not the same thing. One of one is ten of the other. Please don't do any more DIY until you know the difference between 10% and 10mg, and also know when "10mg" means 10mg, and when it really means "10mg/ml."



Also, from NN it was the 100% Nic 100% VG base
No...no, it wasn't. Again, "percent" does not equal "milligrams per milliliter concentration." See above. I'm not trying to be a dick, but you really need to get this straight if you're going to have discussions with other people about the subject.
 

Izan

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I am likely explaining myself incorrectly, so here is a screenshot of what im doing. Also, from NN it was the 100% Nic 100% VG base Smooth Nicotine Salts. This is the current stuff I'm using, but I have used other brands too. View attachment 642707

Hi,
Have you confirmed that 20 drops is equal to 1ml?
If you intend on mixing in very small quantities (5-10ml), I would suggest you mix (accurately) a "working solution" of about 1.0%/10mg/ml (1ml measured/weighted to 99ml of PG/VG or a mix of both).
Then use that in your mixes and pop the 100mg/ml in the freezer.

Cheers
I
 
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cassandraschild

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@bwh79 First off, you aren't being a dick, and I appreciate you pointing out that I was doing something wrong, and/or stating things incorrectly. I'm not sure how to put this, so I'll go wander off into the DIY sections again and do some research. I'm not sure how to explain what I want to articulate without being further wrong, but I know people used to refer to a 3mg of 30 mL bottle of ejuice as containing 3% Nic. Edit: I understand that it is actually not 100% pure nicotine. That in actuality it is 100 mg of nicotine suspended in a 100% VG Solvent. But back in 2011, people would refer to this as a 100% Nicotine solution.

@Izan I have not been using drops, I measure using a 1 mL syringe. But bwh79 is stating that I'm doing my measurements incorrectly, so regardless it seems that somewhere in my education of DIY I have misunderstood something.
 
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Izan

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[QUOTE="cassandraschild,

@Izan I have not been using drops, I measure using a 1 mL syringe. But bwh79 is stating that I'm doing my measurements incorrectly, so regardless it seems that somewhere in my education of DIY I have misunderstood something.[/QUOTE]

I understand; the recipe you posted called for 2 drops/.1ml to reach your target nicotine level.
I was just wondering if you have counted the drops from that particular syringe to confirm that 20 drops ARE in fact, equal to 1ml. (2drops/0.1ml is a very small amount to dispense accurately, IMO)

cheers
I
psst... 10mg/ml working solution...nudge, nudge...;):thumbs:
 

bwh79

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I'm not sure how to explain what I want to articulate without being further wrong, but I know people used to refer to a 3mg of 30 mL bottle of ejuice as containing 3% Nic.
At the risk of starting a fight, I'm gonna say that no, that is not now, and has never been, what that means. Unless the laws of physics have magically changed, and nicotine suddenly became ten times denser than it used to be, it has always been 1010mg/ml in its pure form. We usually just accept one-percent error, and call it an even 1g/ml. (There are one thousand milligrams in a gram.) I mean, I suppose it's possible people were using it that way, but if that's the case, they were using wrong then and it's still wrong now.

The only way that "3%" and "3mg" could ever, possibly mean the same thing, is if we're talking about a total volume of .1ml of liquid. .1ml, at a concentration of 3% (30mg/ml) does indeed have a total nicotine content of 3mg. That's not 3mg "per milliliter," that's 3mg "per all of it." All one-tenth of one milliliter of it. At a concentration of 30 milligrams per milliliter. Since there's only one-tenth of one milliliter, there's also only one-tenth of 30 milligrams. Which is 3 milligrams. In .1ml of liquid. At a concentration of 30mg/ml. Or 3% by volume.

Some products do list their strength as a percent. I usually see it on the Big Tobacco offerings. 1.8%, 2.4%, and 3.6% for example. These are very high strength, equivalent to 18, 24, or 36mg/ml. They are not the same as liquids labeled 1.8mg, 2.4mg, or 3.6mg (and you and I would both know that they would of course mean mg/ml, even though they didn't say it), should such labelings exist (although I don't usually see them with precision down to .1mg/ml like that. They would probably just be sold as 1, 2, or 3mg in that case.)
 
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cassandraschild

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I understand; the recipe you posted called for 2 drops/.1ml to reach your target nicotine level.
I was just wondering if you have counted the drops from that particular syringe to confirm that 20 drops ARE in fact, equal to 1ml. (2drops/0.1ml is a very small amount to dispense accurately, IMO)
cheers
I
psst... 10mg/ml working solution...nudge, nudge...;):thumbs:

@Izan I don't use the drops. My syringe is capable of measuring in .01 mL increments, so in the example above, I would use .1 mL of nicotine solution as a part of the total 10 mL, as the program says. The entire syringe can only hold 1 mL of liquid. This is the exact brand. 1 mL Syringes without Needle BD 309628, 309659, 329650, BD Syringe

From what I'm guessing bwh79 is saying, I should be using .01, not .1 per 10 mL of this solution, and I should be putting it in the calculator as I want .1%, not 1%. Does this sound right?
 
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440BB

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Also , I decided to test @440BB 's idea of going flavor free. I started with pure VG, nothing else. I still noticed a small amount of irritation. So I decided to try 100% VG with 12 MG of Nic just to see if there was a difference in irritation. At first the TH was pretty strong and it definately was uncomfortable. Oddly, after about 5 draws, I noticed a semi sweet taste in the back of my throat, and it feels like there is suddenly a lot more mucus in my throat. As that taste and mucus increased, I noticed the sensation of discomfort decreasing. The only issue is that I havent vaped in about 10 minutes now, but I still feel some discomfort even now (and im pretty sure the source of the discomfort is my tonsils, not my throat in specific. While I have had tonsil stones in the past, I know I don't have any now as I was recently checked by an ENT before I decided to head down this path again).

I had a sense of heaviness when using more than 50% VG myself as well as some mucous buildup. Not that your case is the same, and some of us have sensitivity to PG, but perhaps a mix of 80/20 VG/PG could help with that sensation.
 

cassandraschild

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At the risk of starting a fight, I'm gonna say that no, that is not now, and has never been, what that means.
Some products do list their strength as a percent. I usually see it on the Big Tobacco offerings. 1.8%, 2.4%, and 3.6% for example. These are very high strength, equivalent to 18, 24, or 36mg/ml. They are not the same as liquids labeled 1.8mg, 2.4mg, or 3.6mg, should such labelings exist (although I don't usually see them with precision down to .1mg/ml like that. They would probably just be sold as 1, 2, or 3mg in that case.)

@bwh79 You seem to be intent that this is a potential fight, while I am viewing it as the opposite, an educational opportunity. I understand that you are likely upset because you don't want a stupid "noob" poisoning themselves and making DIYing look bad. As such, I am not upset with your reaction.

What I am trying to understand is if I am somehow placing information into that calculator incorrectly. Instead of putting the target strength as 1mg per 10 mL, should I instead be putting it as a target of .1 mg per 10 mL?
 
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Izan

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@Izan I don't use the drops. My syringe is capable of measuring in .01 mL increments, so in the example above, I would use .1 mL of nicotine solution as a part of the total 10 mL, as the program says. The entire syringe can only hold 1 mL of liquid. This is the exact brand. 1 mL Syringes without Needle BD 309628, 309659, 329650, BD Syringe

From what I'm guessing bwh79 is saying, I should be using .01, not .1 per 10 mL of this solution, and I should be putting it in the calculator as I want .1%, not 1%. Does this sound right?

I don't know nothing 'bout birthin no babies!

I use 100mg/ml VG base from VT.
To make 100ml of 10mg/ml (1.0%) I follow this recipe.
shi.JPG


Hope this helps.
Cheers
I
 

bwh79

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@bwh79 You seem to be intent that this is a potential fight, while I am viewing it as the opposite, an educational opportunity. I understand that you are likely upset because you don't want a stupid "noob" poisoning themselves and making DIYing look bad. As such, I am not upset with your reaction.
I'm being stern because I care. I'm glad you see it that way, too, since not everyone would :)

What I am trying to understand is if I am somehow placing information into that calculator incorrectly.

[...]

From what I'm guessing bwh79 is saying, I should be using .01, not .1 per 10 mL of this solution, and I should be putting it in the calculator as I want .1%, not 1%. Does this sound right?


No, I think you are probably actually doing everything right except the terminology. It's just that the terminology is really important to get right, as well, if you're going to have meaningful communication about the subject.

That calculator screenshot you posted shows a recipe for a final mix with 1mg/ml nicotine content (equivalent to 0.1% nicotine by volume), with something called "Flavor 1" at 1% concentration, and no PG since both your nic base and "Flavor 1" are purportedly in VG solutions. That's pretty low as far as nic content goes and if you're still getting harshness in your vape at that concentration, it's likely nic is not the culprit.

You said you bought 100% nicotine. You did not, but you might have (and probably did) buy 100mg/ml. Which is what you wrote in the calculator that you have, so if that's actually what you do have (and it probably is), you're still okay.

The nic base you have is 10% pure. Or in other words, it's a mixture of 1 part nicotine to 9 parts VG, by volume.
The calculator is telling you to use that liquid at 1% (1 part nic base to 99 parts "everything else put together") in your finished mix.
The concentration of your nic base in the finished mix will be [edit: 1%], but since that nic base was only 10% pure to begin with, the concentration of nicotine in your final mix is only [edit: .1%], or 1mg/ml. This is what you would get if you bought a bottle of retail liquid labeled "1mg."


Instead of putting the target strength as 1mg per 10 mL, should I instead be putting it as a target of .1 mg per 10 mL?
Okay, let's slow down. You're getting your targets mixed up. Remember that "1mg" doesn't refer to an amount. It's not talking about 1mg of nicotine, in your whole bottle. It's referring to a strength, a concentration, of 1mg nicotine per milliliter of finished liquid. Not 1mg per 10ml. Not 1mg per 30ml. Not 1mg per "however big your bottle is." But 1mg per each and every individual ml that's in that bottle. So, in a 10ml bottle, you want 10mg of nicotine. In a 30ml bottle, you'd want 30mg. Etc. But here's the important part, the calculator does this for you automatically. You don't have to know how many mg's to put in your 234ml bottle at 6.54mg/ml concentration, because the calculator figures that out for you. That's what it's for. That's why it's called a "calculator."

Don't worry about the bottle size. You either want 1mg/ml, or you want 10mg/ml, but whichever one you want, it's going to be the same whether your bottle has 10ml or 100ml in it. For reference, 3mg(/ml) is considered pretty low, and 30mg(/ml, aka 3%) would be quite high. You almost certainly don't want only .1mg/ml, that would basically be no nicotine at all. The majority of people seem to tend towards 6-12-18mg/ml, or .6-1.2-1.8% concentration by volume. I won't try and guess what your needs are but personally, I stick to the low end, around 3-6mg/ml (0.3-0.6%) depending on what device I'll be putting it in.
 
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bwh79

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The concentration of your nic base in the finished mix will be .1%, but since that nic base was only 10% pure to begin with, the concentration of nicotine in your final mix is only .01%, or 1mg/ml. This is what you would get if you bought a bottle of retail liquid labeled "1mg."
Whoops! I got lost in my own powers of ten. That should read 1% and .1%, respectively. Edited the post, to fix. And that, is why we use the calculator, because otherwise, we make mistakes like that ;)
 

IDJoel

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Thx for the nod ID.
Thank you Mac for taking the time to write such a thorough reply!:thumbs: You provided lots of good info and some new resources (at least for me). I will look it over, and if I still have questions afterward, I will start a fresh thread, so I am not hijacking this one. :)
 
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IDJoel

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@bwh79,
I think where @cassandraschild is getting into trouble is that many calculators show a "percent of total volume" percentage for nicotine in the display:
upload_2017-3-20_21-55-1.png


In their example (pictured above) both the mg/mL and % to volume do both equal 1 (like you explained was possible in your previous post). The real problem is [edit for clarification] not recognizing it is not "percentage of nicotine" but "percentage to volume."

@cassandraschild,
Perhaps the best thing you can do is stop thinking (and speaking, and writing) about nicotine in terms of "percentage." If you can make yourself think in terms of "milligrams per milliliter" (mg/mL) whenever you are dealing with nicotine everyone else should immediately understand what you are talking about. You will find that value in the calculator you use here:
upload_2017-3-21_0-7-56.png


Please understand that the "% of Total" is a volume value that just happens to be of nicotine and not representative of nicotine strength by itself. The volume percentage is dictated by the targeted nicotine strength (in mg/mL) and the concentration (strength) of the nicotine base you are using (going up with a weaker base; and going down with a stronger base) and is meaningless without noting what nicotine strength base you are using. Using the mg/mL value is independent of what base you use and therefore a much better (more informative) reference.

When I tell someone I am vaping an e-liquid with 6mg/mL they know exactly what my nic strength is and it is immaterial whether I am doing it with 100mg/mL base or 10mg/mL base.

I understand that this can be a bit of a hard habit to break; we speak about all our other ingredients in terms of "percentage." Recipes refer to percentages of PG and VG (or PG/VG ratios, and all our flavor concentrates are percentages too. The difference is that they are not available in different concentrations the way nicotine is.

The real problem with "percentage speak" is you have not defined "percent of what." Is it 1% of pure nicotine (1,000mg/mL as bwh79 already said)(resulting in 10mg/mL)? Is it 1% of 100mg/mL nicotine concentrate (resulting in 1mg/mL)? Or could it be 1% of 24mg/mL nicotine concentrate (resulting in 0.24mg/mL)? Or, are you referring percentage of volume, and not nicotine concentration at all? As you can see; without first defining what the % is part of to begin with, the number (value) is meaningless and can lead to potential misunderstanding, or requests for clarifications, as it did when @bwh79 read your second(?) post. So the easy fix? Don't speak in terms of "nicotine percentage." Cite your "mg/mL" value instead.

As I see it (and the spirit with which I intend it); when asking for help, offering recipes, or attempting to help others, being precise as you can be, helps to make sure that everyone shares a common understanding. And any advise offered, or requested, is as correct, helpful, and useful as possible in return. At least this is my perception; other may feel differently.

Does any of that make sense? Or did I just add to your confusion? :eek::facepalm:
 
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cassandraschild

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@IDJoel Thank you, I appreciate that you all are letting me know how I am explaining things incorrectly. TBH, while I know it's important (and trust me, ill be rereading both your and bwh's posts to make sure I understand how to explain my terminology more correctly), I am doing my measurements correctly, and I was confused (I knew my math was correct) / scared out of my wits I was somehow wrong in my math for a moment there. Hopefully other posters will see that I've gotten a very thorough lesson in the use of old/incorrect terminology, which again, I appreciate (but trust me, I never will and never have advised others in how to do DIY, since I do not consider myself mastered enough to teach others).

Since I'm *not* actually putting my nicotine too high (just explaining it incorrectly) getting back to the original point of this question would be greatly appreciated. I enjoy vaping, and it's the only thing that has actually helped me quit smoking in the past for more than 2 weeks. As such, brainstorming the issue at hand would be more helpful at this point (and again, I appreciate all the posters who have helped me brainstorm ideas thus far, and I am testing stuff slowly as we speak).

I know all of this is important, and I'm doing my best after that scare to be "No, Officer, I am a meat popcicle" about everything, but that conversation may become rather pointless unless I can figure something out.
 

Hawise

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I don't think there are any additives that would help with throat irritation. The ones that have been mentioned are designed to affect flavour rather than anything else. The factors that might affect you are:
  • Nicotine. As you seem to be at 1 mg/ml, that's already very low and it probably wouldn't help much to decrease it further.
  • PG. You seem already to be at max VG, so there's no way to decrease it further.
  • Temperature. You've already mentioned lowering your wattage, increasing your resistance and using TC, so nowhere else to go here either.
  • Volume of vapour. You'd lower this the same way you would temperature - power down, resistance up, TC on - so already done.
  • Flavours. Do you use lots of different flavours, or do you stick with the same one? You might be having trouble with a particular flavouring or group of flavours.
  • DTL vs MTL. Are you doing direct lung inhales? If so, you might have better luck trying MTL and seeing if that suits you.
Good luck.
 

IDJoel

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getting back to the original point of this question would be greatly appreciated. I enjoy vaping, and it's the only thing that has actually helped me quit smoking in the past for more than 2 weeks. As such, brainstorming the issue at hand would be more helpful at this point
Message received; and my apologies for the off-topic chatter. I promise I said my last word on that.;):D

I applaud your efforts to remain smoke-free and wish you nothing but success!
4322.gif


On topic:
Any further info you can share regarding your mixing and/or vaping habits might help spark ideas:
  • Is your sore throat persistent? Does it remain throughout the day? Do you wake up with it? Or does it quickly fade when you stop vaping? I ask, in part, because I am wondering how long it might take for you to know whether any particular change is helping or not.
  • How would you describe your vaping style? Are you more of a cloud chaser or a tootle puffer (lots of dense vapor or less/wispy/thin vapor)? Are you mostly a mouth-to-lung style of vaper, or do you prefer direct to lung? How frequently do vape throughout the day? Constantly? Several times an hour? A couple? Every couple of hours? Or ??? Do you prefer a tight, restricted, airflow? Or an open, airy, airflow?
  • Do you mix just a few recipes, that you know you like, over and over? Or are you constantly mixing new/different recipes?
  • Do you have just one or two categories of recipes you stick to (fruit, desert, bakery, custard, tobacco, etc.)? Or are you all over the board?
  • How much total flavoring do you use on average? Would you say you are mostly a low-flavor mixer (less than 6% total), average-flavor mixer (6%-15% total), or high-flavor mixer (almost always above 15% total)? NOTE: The previous ranges are purely arbitrary and not meant to define what a low, average, or high flavor mixer may be.
  • Are there any flavors you find yourself using in every mix? If so, what are they, and at what percentages are you using them at?
  • Have you found anything that helps the soreness go away? If so, what is/was it and how long does it take to get relief?
Sorry for all the questions, and sorry for the ones that have been asked before (especially the ones that you have already answered), but I am just looking for anything that might spark an idea. I really want to see you find a solution to your frustration.

One thing I have not yet seen mentioned outright (though I have seen in part) is testing your components separately. A common recommendation given to people, who are having problems with their mixing across the board, is to vape the base components separately.

Starting with a fresh build (new coil and wick); vape your PG all by itself (no nicotine, no flavors). Then do the same thing with VG. If both of those check out OK; then mix your preferred PG/VG ratio and add your nicotine at your preferred mg/mL strength so now you are vaping an unflavored base with nicotine. If this is OK; then you can start adding one flavor at a time to see if one of those is the offender.

I do see potential problems with this (in your case) depending on how fast/slow the sore throat comes and goes. It could take some time vaping one single component to notice a change. This might not be very satisfying for flavor or nicotine cravings if it takes a while. It may require some patience and determination for it to offer any useful feedback.

The benefit would be that it would give you a solid methodical way to rule out any offending components.

I'm sorry. I wish I had something more useful and immediate. I see the frustration in your posts and hope you can find something that helps.

I am wishing you the best! :D
 
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