Should the government parent your child?

Given the evidence that nicotine is not addictive, harmful, and is probably beneficial, should there

  • Yes, I believe the government should parent everyone's child, since I cannot.

  • No, if I don't want my children vaping I will do my job as a parent and talk to them about it.

  • I'm still undecided, but ban it until I am.

  • I'm still undecided, so let's wait to ban it.


Results are only viewable after voting.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Lessifer

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 5, 2013
8,309
28,985
Sacramento, California
Given the scientific evidence to date that nicotine is not addictive, not harmful in standard e-liquid doses, and is probably somewhat beneficial, that vaping is not harmful, and that vaping does not lead to tobacco use, do you think it is right to enforce an arbitrary age limit on the purchase of e-liquid that contains nicotine?

*Please read through the thread and links provided within prior to voting.

Here are some initial links:
http://discovermagazine.com/2014/march/13-nicotine-fix

http://www.statepress.com/archive/node/7194

http://smokefree.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/mythsaboutNRTfactsheet.pdf


Feel free to add your own to the thread, either for or against an age limit.
 
Last edited:

Lessifer

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 5, 2013
8,309
28,985
Sacramento, California
Should the government parent your child?

That's a loaded, over-vague question. Nobody's gonna say "Yes" to a question like that, Lessifer.

someone did, and yeah, I know it's vague in the title, and in the poll question itself. I tried to make the first post more thorough. It only gives you so much room in the poll question.

This poll is in direct response to the other poll, about banning sales to minors, just worded differently, and with more options.
 

hurricanegirl100

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jan 29, 2012
1,035
1,310
The burbies of Cleveland
Let's annoy the Libertarians, shall we? Should the government make it illegal for a five year old to get a job? You betcha! Should the government require that children under the age of 18 be educated (whether that's in a traditional school setting or home schooled)? Damn skippy!

Should the government allow children to purchase alcohol and firearms? Um, no lol

Read your history books, folks.A lot of good people called "Progressives" made most of this illegal back in the early 1900's - and I, for one, am glad they did. Regulation does have it's place.

As for children and vaping, we don't know, for sure, if vaping is as safe as everybody says it is. Until there is conclusive proof that it is, I don't want a child (who has no idea what he/she is getting into) headed down the vaping road.
 

Racehorse

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 12, 2012
11,230
28,272
USA midwest
Should the government parent your child?

That's a loaded, over-vague question. Nobody's gonna say "Yes" to a question like that, Lessifer.

Its a a carefully reworded sort of *remake* of this topic, in which NOT selling to minors is strongly supported in the poll. Lessifer does not believe in age requirements and therefore believes that means the government is being allowed to parent your children.

Even "CASAA strongly supports banning e-cigarette sales to minors."

Here is the poll that's been up.....clearly, most vapers here do not believe children should be buying nicotine:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...allowed-buy-e-liquids-contain-nicotine-8.html


As I've already said though, there are many things that I don't believe children should do, and I was accused of "adultism" in that topic. :lol: (not by Lessifer, who is a polite individual to chat with, even if you don't' agree with him/her.:))

thats okay. I believe in things like age of consent, age to purchase alcohol, voting age, driving age, marriage age, age to decide you refuse to attend school, purchase firearms, etc. you know, stuff like that. a.....and no, I don't think that means I've asked the government to *raise them*.
 
Last edited:

Mrs C

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 27, 2013
2,528
10,144
Indiana
While I don't care for the wording ...I voted yes. I don't believe kids should be able to purchase nicotine.
I view it the same as guns, alcohol.

I don't believe a minor should be able to walk in and purchase a hunting rifle or a hand gun and ammo.
But yet all 4 of my kids have had hunting licenses, and have been handgun shooting on a range.

I don't believe a minor should be able to walk in a store and purchase alcohol.
Yet all 4 of my children have had wine with dinner, a cold beer with Dad or Grandpa, and have been allowed in our home with us present to find out what getting drunk is like.

I don't want my child to walk in a vape shop and purchase juice or any other gear. If I think it's appropriate for them to have it I will provide it after making sure they can use it safely and in a responsible manner.
 
Last edited:

Lessifer

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 5, 2013
8,309
28,985
Sacramento, California
So now nicotine is on par with alcohol and guns... How many people die every year due to alcohol, or guns? We don't even need anti vaping movements anymore, vapers themselves believe that vaping is akin to smoking. I should really just stock up on nic base now, maybe when I get my tax return.

If it's "harmful" to children, you probably shouldn't do it around them either. If you shouldn't do it around children, you probably shouldn't be allowed to force someone else to be around it either, so better go outside, 20 feet from the door. If it's an adult only activity, that is "harmful"(and it has to be harmful right? that's why you don't want kids doing it, right?) we should probably be doing what we can to discourage it. So, let's add a tax, so that every time you buy liquid that extra $5 let's you KNOW that you're doing something wrong. If you don't stop within a couple years, we'll have to double the "sin" tax, you know, to protect the children.
 
Last edited:

Lessifer

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 5, 2013
8,309
28,985
Sacramento, California
Its a a carefully reworded sort of *remake* of this topic, in which NOT selling to minors is strongly supported in the poll. Lessifer does not believe in age requirements and therefore believes that means the government is being allowed to parent your children.
Just trying to give a different perspective, and hoping people will inform themselves prior to voting, though I know most won't. :)

Even "CASAA strongly supports banning e-cigarette sales to minors."
I understand why they take this position, I don't agree with it, but I understand it as a political action. Though I do think it harms our cause overall.

Here is the poll that's been up.....clearly, most vapers here do not believe children should be buying nicotine:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...allowed-buy-e-liquids-contain-nicotine-8.html
Most vapers who answered the poll, though I know of at least one that changed their mind after reading through the whole thread.

As I've already said though, there are many things that I don't believe children should do, and I was accused of "adultism" in that topic. :lol: (not by Lessifer, who is a polite individual to chat with, even if you don't' agree with him/her.:))
Thanks, I do try to be polite :)

thats okay. I believe in things like age of consent, age to purchase alcohol, voting age, driving age, marriage age, age to decide you refuse to attend school, purchase firearms, etc. you know, stuff like that. a.....and no, I don't think that means I've asked the government to *raise them*.
I actually don't have an issue with most of these, for the following reasons:
1. Age of consent - this one's a tough one, with many nuances, I'll leave it alone here.
2. Alcohol - is positively KNOWN to be addictive, cause disease, cause injury, impair judgement, kills thousands if not more every year.
3. Voting Age - If you're not old enough to contribute by paying taxes, no voting. Voting is a bit of a sham though anyways, most don't learn anything about any of the candidates, or any of the issues being voted on, not unlike internet polls.
4. Driving age - Younger children are physically incapable. Cars are incredibly dangerous items, kill thousands if not more every year.
5. Marriage age - you should really be old enough to support your family, whatever it consists of, before you can get married, and old enough to not be under the complete influence of your parents.
6. School attendance - Education is important, more important than we give it credit for, I'd be happy with mandatory college/vocational training.
7. Purchase Firearms - Deadly if not used properly, or if used properly, depending.

Now let's take a look at nicotine... Nope, none of that. Not addictive(without tobacco), no evidence of harm, evidence of potential benefits.

Some people think that if you're against an age limit, that you WANT to sell nicotine to kids; in reality, I just don't want to start a banning/taxing process without justification. In the 31 pages of the other thread, not a single person could present any evidence that nicotine is more harmful than any number of other products that most people happily let their children consume daily.
 

Racehorse

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 12, 2012
11,230
28,272
USA midwest
^^^^ well-stated. While I do not share your opinion on this issue, you presented your side very clearly, and many of your points have *merit*.

If you *must* know......I actually don't think nicotine is dangerous. I am still on the fence about dependency though. I have dropped my nic and am using either 0mg or 3mg. But I had to do that very slowly, and I did get some pretty strong withdrawals. Whether that be psychological or physiological, I cannot say. I was not hooked up to any monitors. :)

What I want to know more about, right now, that I consider possible safety issues, or risks is: information on certain flavorings and lungs, mystery metals used in these chinese delivery devices we are using and their toxicity, other materials in delivery devices.

About these items, as an adult, I can make a *decision* as to the risks I'm willing to accept. For children, they are not really capable of making those decisions yet, so yeah, I *do* believe they need protection and guidance. I believe harm reduction, in the case of a child, needs to be more stringent than that for myself.

While many of you eshew government intervention into your lives, quite frankly, I abhor many of the manipulative practices of "the marketplace." I very much dislike so much of the buy buy buy *stuff* and the way children are *marketed to." So I don't want my children being manipulated by marketers, vendors, salespeople etc. either. Until they are able to develop sound judgement about things in life. There are already a lot of pressures on children that weren't abundant when I was a child....peer pressure is bad enough.

I will decide what my child purchases, in other words. When they are 18, out of the house, and self supporting, then they can decide how to spend their money.
 
Last edited:

Racehorse

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 12, 2012
11,230
28,272
USA midwest
In the 31 pages of the other thread, not a single person could present any evidence that nicotine is more harmful than any number of other products that most people happily let their children consume daily.


And by the way, that paragraph halted me. It's a *bad argument*. Because, many of us aren't "most people." ;)
 

Lessifer

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 5, 2013
8,309
28,985
Sacramento, California
^^^^ well-stated. While I do not share your opinion on this issue, you presented your side very clearly, and many of your points have *merit*.

If you *must* know......I actually don't think nicotine is dangerous. I am still on the fence about dependency though. I have dropped my nic and am using either 0mg or 3mg. But I had to do that very slowly, and I did get some pretty strong withdrawals. Whether that be psychological or physiological, I cannot say. I was not hooked up to any monitors. :)

What I want to know more about, right now, that I consider possible safety issues, or risks is: information on certain flavorings and lungs, mystery metals used in these chinese delivery devices we are using and their toxicity, other materials in delivery devices.

About these items, as an adult, I can make a *decision* as to the risks I'm willing to accept. For children, they are not really capable of making those decisions yet, so yeah, I *do* believe they need protection and guidance. I believe harm reduction, in the case of a child, needs to be more stringent than that for myself.

While many of you eshew government intervention into your lives, quite frankly, I abhor many of the manipulative practices of "the marketplace." I very much dislike so much of the buy buy buy *stuff* and the way children are *marketed to." So I don't want my children being manipulated by marketers, vendors, salespeople etc. either. Until they are able to develop sound judgement about things in life. There are already a lot of pressures on children that weren't abundant when I was a child....peer pressure is bad enough.



It may surprise you, it may not, but I actually agree with you on most points.

As for dependence, there is no doubt that nicotine is a strong component of tobacco dependence, and it is one of the ways vaping helps alleviate that dependence. The links in my first post are to a few studies/articles about the effects of nicotine on never-smokers, and the consensus is that it is not possible to develop physiological dependence on nicotine, without tobacco. I am addicted to nicotine, but I used to smoke.

I too would like more research on flavorings, and really everything else having to do with vaping, as far as long term effects. I'm also not a libertarian, I'm actually a democrat, and I do believe that government can play a beneficial role in our lives. I simply don't believe in a ban(of any kind, even in the form of age restrictions) without reason, and I don't believe there is enough evidence of anything to justify a ban at this time.

In particular, I firmly agree with this:
I will decide what my child purchases, in other words. When they are 18, out of the house, and self supporting, then they can decide how to spend their money.
I simply do not agree that the government has to assist you, by outlawing sales to your child.
 

Lessifer

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 5, 2013
8,309
28,985
Sacramento, California
And by the way, that paragraph halted me. It's a *bad argument*. Because, many of us aren't "most people." ;)

you may not be one of the "most people" that happily lets your child consume caffeine, or sugar, but you also probably(I will concede I don't know) don't call for those things to be illegal for minors to purchase either.
 

Racehorse

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 12, 2012
11,230
28,272
USA midwest
you may not be one of the "most people" that happily lets your child consume caffeine, or sugar, but you also probably(I will concede I don't know) don't call for those things to be illegal for minors to purchase either.

well, that is true, Lessifer. There are forms of sugar that I think is "killing people slowly like cigarettes" but cigarettes are legal, but cigs are still 18 and over.

However, if you ate some of that sugar on a tablespoon or out of a shot glass, you would probably not have to go to the emergency room.

With nicotine, that is kinda not true. Either is eating a cigarette. For a pet or child, could be rather serious.

Those super high Caffeine drinks are not like folgers......which would not deliver the dose.... one could argue *could* do same thing... but they *are* sealed when they are new in can/bottle. It would not be easy for a child to get into that can/glass without breaking a seal.

I will give you that it's a rather complex matter.......worthy of being picked apart.
 

Lessifer

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 5, 2013
8,309
28,985
Sacramento, California
well, that is true, Lessifer. There are forms of sugar that I think is "killing people slowly like cigarettes" but cigarettes are legal, but cigs are still 18 and over.

However, if you ate some of that sugar on a tablespoon or out of a shot glass, you would probably not have to go to the emergency room.

With nicotine, that is kinda not true. Either is eating a cigarette. For a pet or child, could be rather serious.

Those super high Caffeine drinks are not like folgers......which would not deliver the dose.... one could argue *could* do same thing... but they *are* sealed when they are new in can/bottle. It would not be easy for a child to get into that can/glass without breaking a seal.

I will give you that it's a rather complex matter.......worthy of being picked apart.

If you want to restrict the sale of liquid nicotine(higher concentration, meant for dilution) I would be okay with that, as there is a demonstrable harm associated. However, commercially mixed liquids that contain nicotine and are meant for vaping without being diluted are not at a high enough concentration to be lethal, except possibly for VERY small children, though even that is not unquestionable.

The basis for restricting sales to minors is that vaping IS or could be bad for you, which is also the basis for restrictions on use by adults(indoor/public spaces bans), and the basis for any kind of "sin" tax that will eventually be applied. If you acknowledge that you believe vaping is bad enough for minors to be restricted, the rest will follow soon.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread