Sony VTC4 vs LG HE2 vs LG HE4 vs EFest 35A 2100mah

[folkphys]

Here's what I've been wondering:

LG's HE2, HE4 and HD2 are listed as ICR chemistry batteries.........and we all know never to use ICR's.......so, what's going on with these? Are they miss-translating into English? Are they a new safer form of ICR chemistry? I have a pair of HE4's, and while one is out of rotation due to a mysterious sudden major positive contact denting, the other is humming along fine in my Cloupor Mini (albeit, with a quite the voltage sag as compared to my 25r's).

 

[KenD]

On dampfakkus the hd2 is listed as IMR and the others as NMC (hybrid). Where do you get ICR from?

 

[Baditude]

They fall in the class of the new "IMR/hybrid". They have components of an ICR (primarily cobalt) and add the safer chemistry of either mangangese or nickel (IMR or INR).

All the more recent batteries we currently use for vaping and manufactured by Sony (VTC series), Panasonic/Orbrtronic, Samsung, AW IMR, and LG-HE batteries are considered IMR/hybrids. They retain most of the higher capacity (mAh) of ICR batteries and add the safer chemistry and high drain ability of IMR batteries.

Battery Basics for Mods: IMR or ICR?

Deeper Understanding of Mod Batteries (part I & II)


PROTECTED or IMR BATTERY: ​Which Lithium battery is best for your application?

IMR Li-Mn. Lithium manganese batteries. Also called "high drain", "safe chemistry", "unprotected".


•These are used in regulated mods that use buck boost circuitry to achieve variable voltage-wattage, but they are now also recommended for single voltage mechanical mods as a safer alternative to protected Li-Ion batteries.

​
•This class will have less capacity in mAh rating compared to protected batteries, but are superior when maximum load current is required, such as in regulated mods, mechanical mods using a Kick, or using an RBA.


​IMR/Hybrid batteries.

•New mixed chemistry batteries that are both safe chemistry/high drain and extended capacity in one. ​A good choice for applications that demand both maximum load current and longer battery time. Can be used for either mechanical or regulated mods. Some of these have 20 or more amps continuous discharge ideal for sub-ohm.


Protected ICR Li Ion. Lithium ion class batteries, also called "protected batteries".


•These batteries are now considered obsolete for mod use because of their potential for flames & explosion.

 

[Froth]

I Believe I may have shed some light on the wonky Samsung 25R numbers coming from: Test of Samsung INR18650-25R 2500mAh (Green) - the test is from 2012 and the newest revision of the battery which is being sold(the one which the specification sheet is available for - http://www.powerstream.com/p/INR18650-25R-datasheet.pdf) is a late 2013 battery, which is probably an entirely different revision than what was tested in the 2012 test. The Illumination supply test was much more recent, in 2014 with the newest revision of 25R. Those are my thoughts, anyway.

 

[folkphys]

On dampfakkus the hd2 is listed as IMR and the others as NMC (hybrid). Where do you get ICR from?

Illumination Supply and Keeppower.com.......but of course, nearly everywhere else they are listed as IMR or NMC..

 

[Monotremata]

Aren't the Panasonic's ICRs??

 

[Baditude]

Aren't the Panasonic's ICRs??

Nope. The ones we use for vaping are hybrids. Panasonic calls them NCR (nickel/colbalt?).

Panasonic ​or Orbtronic hybrid
CGR18650CH (IMR/hybrid) 2250mAh 10A
NCR18650BD 3200mAh 10A
NCR18650PF (LiNiCOMnO2) 2900mAh 10A
NCR18650PD (LiNiCoAl) 2900mAh 10A
Orbtronic 18650 SX22 2000mAh 22A
Orbtronic 18650 2500mAh 21A
Orbtronic 18650 SX30 2100mAh ​30A

Now, not all hybrids are created equal. For instance, the Panasonic/Orbtronic 18650A 3200mAh and 18650B 3600 mAh are hybrids with the chemistry more heavily weighted to being an ICR than an IMR. Their mAh capacity is the highest for a hybrid battery, but their continuous discharge rate is only 6.8 amps. These batteries were more designed for low drain applications such as a flashlight and not well-suited for personal vaporizers.

On the other hand, the Panasonic/Orbtronic 18650PF or PD 2900mAh batteries are more loaded on the IMR side and have 10 amps continuous discharge rate. These are better suited for personal vaporizers.

And again, the Orbtronics SX30 is another hybrid with 30 amps continuous and 2100 mAh. These are great for those who sub-ohm.

See a pattern here? In general, the higher you go in capacity (mAh), the lower the amp output, and vice versa. The old ICR batteries could have as much as 4200 mAh capacity, but only have 3 amps output. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

* Note: Orbtronics uses original Panasonic cells for some of their batteries and rewraps them.

 

[KenD]

Nope. The ones we use for vaping are hybrids. Panasonic calls them NCR (nickel/colbalt?).

Panasonic ​or Orbtronic hybrid
CGR18650CH (IMR/hybrid) 2250mAh 10A
NCR18650BD 3200mAh 10A
NCR18650PF (LiNiCOMnO2) 2900mAh 10A
NCR18650PD (LiNiCoAl) 2900mAh 10A
Orbtronic 18650 SX22 2000mAh 22A
Orbtronic 18650 2500mAh 21A
Orbtronic 18650 SX30 2100mAh ​30A

Now, not all hybrids are created equal. For instance, the Panasonic/Orbtronic 18650A 3200mAh and 18650B 3600 mAh are hybrids with the chemistry more heavily weighted to being an ICR than an IMR. Their mAh capacity is the highest for a hybrid battery, but their continuous discharge rate is only 6.8 amps. These batteries were more designed for low drain applications such as a flashlight.

On the other hand, the Panasonic/Orbtronic 18650PF or PD 2900mAh batteries are more loaded on the IMR side and have 10 amps continuous discharge rate. These are better suited for personal vaporizers.

And again, the Orbtronics SX30 is another hybrid with 30 amps continuous and 2100 mAh. These are great for those who sub-ohm.

See a pattern here? In general, the higher you go in capacity (mAh), the lower the amp output, and vice versa. The old ICR batteries could have as much as 4200 mAh capacity, but only have 3 amps output. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

* Note: Orbtronics uses original Panasonic cells for some of their batteries and rewraps them.

Could be added that mAh rating by itself doesn't say much about how long the battery will last in actual use. Batteries with higher amp ratings usually have lower internal resistance, which amounts to more useful battery capacity at higher amp drains. An LG he2 (2500 mAh) will commonly give more battery time at a 5 amp draw than a 3200 mAh Panasonic.

 

[VapingTurtle]

Could be added that mAh rating by itself doesn't say much about how long the battery will last in actual use. Batteries with higher amp ratings usually have lower internal resistance, which amounts to more useful battery capacity at higher amp drains. An LG he2 (2500 mAh) will commonly give more battery time at a 5 amp draw than a 3200 mAh Panasonic.

That's right. Again, you need to look at a discharge curve at the current and voltage range for your target usage to help determine the best battery for you.

I'll also say that genuine HEs, 25Rs, and VTCs are all good high-drain batteries for vapers. No need to split hairs. They all work well. Pick the name or color you like.

 

[Slurp812]

I wouldn't run a .2ohm coil on a 20A battery. That's a 21A draw on a full 4.2V battery charge with absolutely no margin for error.

.3ohms would be the lowest I would go with a 20A battery. That gives at least a 25% margin of error for battery discharge. Any lower than that and I would recommend a 30A battery like the VTC4 or Orbtronic SX30.

You'd be lucky to have 3.7 volts when you press the button with a .2 ohm load. We are also ignoring the resistance of the mod itself. The reality is closer to 18 amps. Of course how accurately measured is that .2 ohm coil? So yes, you should have some room for measurement error. Vape safe out there!

 

[Visus]

Thats a great heads up on the samsungs then, regardless, they both are great choices and thats awesome for us. A few years back we had so few choices if needing high amperage batts.. It is strange that test was that different of outcome then others, I have only seen HKJ's tests wow..

 

[dingo1799]

No science here, just a lonely opus bt-c3400 and a desk full of garbage but my he2's work better in mechs, and the 25r's work better in sig150 and Hana. Also when using the charge/discharge test function of my charger, the 25rs consistently churn out 2500ish mah, and the he2's always come out 2100-2200mah.

 

[Froth]

I'll also say that genuine HEs, 25Rs, and VTCs are all good high-drain batteries for vapers. No need to split hairs. They all work well. Pick the name or color you like.

Splitting hairs is what I do!, I'm always looking for the latest edge in battery technology, Until new cells are released and verified/tested I'm going to stick with the Samsung 25R, it routinely gives me a lower total voltage drop at the atomizer posts than ANY of the other high drain batters, even in to 30A territory. I wanted to confirm what I posted earlier, that the graph for the 2012 revision of the 25R(green wrapper) is vastly different than the newest light blue wrapper 25R. Here's some proof from an independent tester that I found on another forum.

PLEASE CLICK TO EXPAND (didn't want to clog with tons of pics)

**Credit to forum user 90quattrocoupe and friend**

These test were done by a friend of mine. If you have any questions, don't ask me, as I will not know. The equipment used here is pretty good and the testing is better than any others I have seen by anyone else. So this may answer some of your questions.

This is the reason I only use Samsung 25Rs. You can't seem to get VTC5s any more and the mAh on VTCs4s is only 2100, VTC3s even lower. The Samsungs can be hard for less money.




Battery Load Testing
This a start of load testing of some of the popular high current batteries. The batteries tested so far are all new 18650 and conditioned, with the exception of the Sony VTC5.
A series a tests will be performed on the batteries that are tailored toward the way it is used in vape gear.

The equipment used is a Maynuo Electronic load, connected to a PC. The PC controls the electronic load and logs the data from the tests performed. I built the battery rig, which incorporates small fans to pull heat from the battery if needed at high current drains. It is also used for after cooling to help bring the battery back to normal state and ready for charging.



This first test places the battery under a constant current load, but pulsed for 4 seconds on, and 5 seconds off. This cycle continues until the battery reaches a 2.5 volt cutoff.
Batteries tested:
Sony US18650VTC5
Samsung INR18650-25R 2500 mAh
LG - 18650HE2 2500 mAh
Efest 18650 (Purple 35A)
MXJO 18650 2500 mAh
SubOhmCell 35A 2800 mAh







Of note is the SubOhmCell 18650. This battery runs hot. Doing a 30 amp discharge test was very iffy. Also, this battery is very slow to recharge.

Since mech mods do not run at constant current, the next set of test will be with a constant resistance, but pulsed for X amount of cycles.

.4 Ohm Load Test.
This test loads the battery at .4 ohms for 4 seconds on, and 4 seconds off. It is run for about a total period of 13 minutes.
The actual data numbers are shown for the Samsung-25R battery. at this load, all batteries performed very close, all within .1 volts.
I didnt run the batteries down to its cutoff, as I dont think anyone would when actually vaping.







Here are the data numbers from the .3 ohm test. Although the chart makes some batteries look bad, I'd say there is no winner. They all perform very close. If another battery was used, or different charger used, that battery could easily be higher than all the rest.







So, given the test process that is closer to to way you vape, all of these higher current batteries will perform well. But at very low ohm builds, the more influence the mod and atty will have. A mod/atty with a .1 volt loss, can lose 20 watts of power.

Original forum, direct link - Best High Drain 18650 With Highest Continuous discharge current | .................. Forums - An Ecig and Vaping Forum

I've always been saying that vaping is a pulse drain activity, well this is a pulse drain test done properly IMO and a true show of vaping use during a full battery test. Samsung 25R, the CLEAR winner even in the 30A range. I've been using 25R's for a few months now and have been singing the praises to everyone I can for subohm mechanical and higher drain usage.

 

[Monotremata]

Careful, I don't think they like us talking about that 'other forum' over here even though a lot of us are members there.

 

[Froth]

Careful, I don't think they like us talking about that 'other forum' over here even though a lot of us are members there.

I was hesitant to post the link but I figured the data was worth the risk(I originally just quoted it), usually if the website name isn't on the filter I'll take the risk. Initially I didn't link to the "other place" but I felt bad not giving credit where it's due to such a good post.

 

[Fearlessleader]

I use NCR18650PF Panasonic 10 Amp batts relabeled by Orbtronics to make them button top in all my mods under 25 watts like the Provari. Panasonic has a few nice batteries that Orbtronic relabels to make them button top. In the 10 to 15 amp range in a 15 to 25 watt device all of them will out last 25r's and the LG HE4 at 15 to 20 watt devices. There is no one battery that fits all. In low wattage units you can use much higher Mah as high as 3400 Mah in my opinion the Panasonic's the 10amp are great in Provari. The New AW are well made batteries but a bit high in price not so good of a bang for the buck.
Next

Samsung INR18650-30Q 15 amp 3000 MAH for My dna 30 DNA 25 TC and even the DNA 40 TC. I find that they outlast all of the stuff like the Samsungs 25r Lg he4 and the VTC4 at low wattage as for me, most of my vaping is at the 15 watts area so I don't need 20 amp plus all good batteries surge to about a 30% of the rated amperage for about 3 to 4 seconds this gets to be really important in temperature controlled devices as they way they work they can best use a batteries ability to surge there draw is constantly going up and down so the chances of getting a surge in a TC devise is about 100% . They are great in DNA 25 temp control and even my DNA 40 Temp control as its max draw is 16 amps, but it's set to 25 watts 390F and it has no problem. I am only using about 2/3 of the amp rating. plus that 15 amp battery can surge to 20+ easy.
I find matching the batteries amp output to the real usage in devices is the best way to get max run time or also the MAH=run time. Just buying the BEST BATTERY is not the way to do it. There are better batteries than the 25r and the He4 used in the right mod. the term better battery is not real right either I good 15amp battery that surges to 24 amps and had 3200 MAH IS the better battery in dna 30 thru DNA 40 TC even if it don't have as many amps because it will give 1/3rd longer run time
Now the Samsung 25r 20 amp 2500Mah the Lg He4 20amp 2500 MAH are the next step up starting at the DNA 40 TC or even the SX350j in dual mode series as well. Both of those are great batteries there is a great crossover batteries I use too as they can be used for Mech Mod as well as any they can surge to 30 amps and give you longer run time even on your dripper at .5 ohms they really versatile batteries as they can do a fair job in the low wattage units in everything I mentioned before and give do sub ohm vaping as well. can you sub ohm as far down as you can on a VTC4 or the new purple efests at 35 amp 2500 MAH? No but at .5 sub ohm they will do every bit as good as the Sony VTC4 and last 400 MAH longer

5o watt units is where I start with the HE4 25r and in my mech mods 1.5 ohm to .07 ohms the cloupor t50 watt that a battery hog at high wattage and no matter what you put in that its bit of a battery eater I even us sony VTC5 and VTC4 and a orbtronics sx30 sony VTC4 relabeled and nothing really last at sub ohm .

But anyway at 50 watt plus units I use the He4 and HE2 Samsung 25r Sony VTC4 orbtronics sx30 the samsung starts to shine here just a bit over the HE4 and really out does the sony's
orbtronics sx30 and the Sony VTC4 and the new Efest Purple Series IMR 18650 2500mAh 35amp on this one its very close to my Sony VTC5 I don't see much difference I would say it the replacement for the VTC5.

I would like to hear what people think of the Efest Purple Series IMR 18650 2500mAh 35amp if they are getting the same results as I am

In 18490 the new AW IMR 18490 18amp that about the best 18490 18500 I know of if anyone knows a better one I like to hear about it I end use that since I got a pair a few days ago in my mech mods at .7 ohm for dripping they rock and for use in the Provari short mode these are the the sony of the 18500 I mean wow 18 amp from a small battery like that I am going to make a new box mod for a pair of these and the sx350j running them in series 18 amps should be should enough to run it at ago 30 to 35 joules easy if I can find the right box to run them inline I thinking about making a mod out of a copper pipe 2" x4.5 enough and make it like a clouper t50 and then I will plate it in nickel. I like the couper its just terrible on batteries
MNKE
25650
I don't use from what I heard there all relables that they went out of business 2 years ago
If you want a kicking sub ohm bat the best I have found is 26650 5200mAh High Drain Li-ion IMR battery from Orbtronic that last me all day at .5 to .4 ohm You would think that someone makes a 26650 that like 40 amps if someone know of something like that please let me know I don't see much out there in 26650s and I just got into a new mech mod now that used the 26650 the Kryptonite. I almost died when I seen the shipping on that one thing was so heavy I could use dhl to ship and it was just few bucks more than China epacket good think it was only 24 before shipping so it was like 38$ for it shipped madvapes wants 59$ on sale plus they have shipping on it too! LOL

So the right battery for the right mod and you have a lot more choices if a batter is less than the max amp input but you never use it over half that then why have a battery that 30amp and 2000 mamp when you can have 15 to 20 battery with 2600mha to 3000 with temperature control now I set everything at about 25 watts and 390f I run a Panisonic that gives me 3000 at 15 amp and it works great. I sure I get a bunch of folks that think I am nuts but but everything in vaping is not amps if you like to get max run time you need to look at how you vape and look at the draw of your device for the way you set it up. I don't think the biggest battery is the best every device and your personal set up has to be counted in the figures.
I have compared my run times from when I started and thought everything has to have a vtc 5 in it and that was not the case over time I have learned to tailor my mods and setting to match the batteries I use and i have gain min 4 to 8 hour run time some even more. a 3400 mah bat in my provari 3 running at 12 to 14 watts will run for days on Panasonic 18650 3400mAh NCR18650B and it only about a 7 amp bat with a 12 amp surge but its plenty to run that device my wife only uses 12 amps and take short mouth to lung hits 2 or 4 second tops these batteries can surge that if it needed to but it don't.

When it comes to batteries there is a lot to take into account to maximum performance and just slapping the biggest battery u can find may be safe no doubt but if know what you're doing there is much better ways to do it
Just my 2 cents worth or maybe 5 cents worth LOL

 

[VapingTurtle]

@Fearlessleader, I wish you would put as much effort into learning to write coherently as you have put into finding the right batteries for your uses.

I think what you said has some merit, but it's tough to tell from that screed.

 

[Fearlessleader]

@Fearlessleader, I wish you would put as much effort into learning to write coherently as you have put into finding the right batteries for your uses.

I think what you said has some merit, but it's tough to tell from that screed.

Man I sorry I tried to do my best. I will try and fix it up a bit I was trying to helpful. Was the worst part so I can fix it I did use spell checker so most of should be spelled ok