Washington bill (6569) would tax tobacco substitutes (including e-cigs) at 95%, referred to Senate Ways and Means Cmte

[endGame]

Here is a link to the fiscal impact study done for this bill - it's interesting:
https://app.leg.wa.gov/CMD/Handler....umentcontent&documentId=WhKdj_hQE24&att=false

It's important to remember also that in Washington state, for better of for worse, the cigarette tax directly funds public education.
It's clear from the information and projections in the above document that the legislature has identified a massive growth industry.
I don't really think this bill has anything to do with safety, freedom, or anything else but revenue.

Here's a quote :
"It is estimated that this bill will increase state revenues by $3.4 million in the 2013-15 Biennium and $38.8 million in the
2015-17 Biennium."

Those numbers are based on Wall Street's growth analysis of the e-cig industry over the next several years.
buy your stock now everybody! .... or start an e-cig business.... somewhere besides Washington state.....

 

[DrMA]

I already posted that a couple pages back, but thanks for reminding everybody about the true intentions of the Seattle rep sponsoring the bill.

And BTW, appropriations can and will move the money from the education fund to the general fund at the earliest opportunity. Besides, education of our kids is an investment in our future, therefore it should be funded by all state residents, not just vapers.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

I already posted that a couple pages back, but thanks for reminding everybody about the true intentions of the Seattle rep sponsoring the bill.

And BTW, appropriations can and will move the money from the education fund to the general fund at the earliest opportunity. Besides, education of our kids is an investment in our future, therefore it should be funded by all state residents, not just vapers.

Funny how that works here in MO. When the lottery was up for vote they said all funds would go to education in a save the kids rally cry. In fact they still spew that nonsense. Well turns out that technically all the money does go to education. Funny (sad) thing is for every dollar that goes into education from the lottery that is one less dollar they fund education from the general fund. Feed the masses BS and tell them its for the kids and they are happy little mushrooms.

 

[X-Puppy]

I don't know enough about this to make an educated comment but I doubt this will offset the new tax levy they just slapped on us in Marysville. (For education)

 

[lindsay1126]

Great initiative! Is there an organizational link? FB post? something that can be shared far and wide?

News: As far as I can tell, the House Finance Cmtee met today and approved an amended version of the bill that:
- defines vapor products as tobacco products, including all hardware, liquid, and accessories. The bill's language is so all ecompasing, that it could be interpreted that anything that contains nicotine falls under this definition, including tomatoes, potatoes, peppers, and all other plants from the nightshade family. It also appears that "any component" even if "sold separately" is covered, which means copper pipe, Kanthal wire, electric switches, bottle caps, and Lithium batteries among many other things are also subject to this bill.
- taxes vapor products at 75% wholesale
- in a BS move to dispel the mass murder overtones of this punitive tax, the new bill "Excludes electronic cigarettes that are prescribed by a licensed physician and purchased at a pharmacy"; as far as I know, no such ecigs exist, never existed, and none are planned to hit the market.

HFC meeting documents: https://app.leg.wa.gov/CMD/document.aspx?agency=3&year=2014&cid=1624&lid=2795

Amended bill text: https://app.leg.wa.gov/CMD/Handler....umentcontent&documentId=peuLVSdd3A4&att=false

So does this mean there is NO stopping this at this point? Does this bill include all online sales as well? Sorry, the legal jargon is above my head. I just don't know what to do....My husband and I can't afford this and I can't imagine not vaping.

 

[DrMA]

So does this mean there is NO stopping this at this point? Does this bill include all online sales as well? Sorry, the legal jargon is above my head. I just don't know what to do....My husband and I can't afford this and I can't imagine not vaping.

It's not the end. It's still unclear to me whether the House Finance Cmtee approved the bill, or whether they just approved an amendment to the proposed bill.

But, if they approved the bill, it would have to be voted on by all reps in the House. Then it goes to the Senate, then the Governor will have to sign it. Chances are it still will not become law, since the companion Senate bill (SB 6569) died in the Ways&Means Cmtee.

What you can do:
- post comments on the bill stating your opposition: https://app.leg.wa.gov/pbc/bill/2795
- contact your representatives and tell them why they should oppose this bill

 

[lindsay1126]

So does this mean there is NO stopping this at this point? Does this bill include all online sales as well? Sorry, the legal jargon is above my head. I just don't know what to do....My husband and I can't afford this and I can't imagine not vaping.

It's not the end. It's still unclear to me whether the House Finance Cmtee approved the bill, or whether they just approved an amendment to the proposed bill.

But, if they approved the bill, it would have to be voted on by all reps in the House. Then it goes to the Senate, then the Governor will have to sign it. Chances are it still will not become law, since the companion Senate bill (SB 6569) died in the Ways&Means Cmtee.

What you can do:
- post comments on the bill stating your opposition: https://app.leg.wa.gov/pbc/bill/2795
- contact your representatives and tell them why they should oppose this bill

Thanks I feel a tiny bit better. I have contacted my representives. I heard back from 1 saying he would consider my thoughts (bs). I will start commenting on the link too thanks.

 

[lindsay1126]

So does this mean there is NO stopping this at this point? Does this bill include all online sales as well? Sorry, the legal jargon is above my head. I just don't know what to do....My husband and I can't afford this and I can't imagine not vaping.

It's not the end. It's still unclear to me whether the House Finance Cmtee approved the bill, or whether they just approved an amendment to the proposed bill.

But, if they approved the bill, it would have to be voted on by all reps in the House. Then it goes to the Senate, then the Governor will have to sign it. Chances are it still will not become law, since the companion Senate bill (SB 6569) died in the Ways&Means Cmtee.

What you can do:
- post comments on the bill stating your opposition: https://app.leg.wa.gov/pbc/bill/2795
- contact your representatives and tell them why they should oppose this bill

Never mind I already posted our (hubby and me's) story and why we strongly oppose this bill. So I have done what I can do for now.

 

[rothenbj]

Let's face it, they have a subsection of the population that they've been hammering with taxes in the name of name of "smoker cost to society" for decades. They figure we were fools all these years, why should that change.

 

[9ball_AJ]

I just found this thread, but here is my take:

The House of Representatives just passed a democratic partisan budget that made some pretty big promises to create state revenue for education. House Bill 2795 is just a grasp for additional revenue from wherever they can get it. It still needs to be passed on the House Floor, and the Senate Floor, and it appears that the majority of the Republican Party is against it. Republicans have the Senate majority, which just may be our saving grace.

The supporters argue that it is an attempt to make ecigs too expensive for kids to buy, but we all know the initial costs for starting up on ecigs is already unattractive to most middle and high school age kids. Although vaping can and is much cheaper than smoking for many in the long run, the initial investment can be upwards of $100. Supporters also argue that since the vaping industry sued the FDA when they tried to classify ecigs as a medical device, that means that the industry wants ecigs to be classified as tobacco products. In reality a new classification needs to be accepted for vapor products, or whatever they want to call it.

I personally am not opposed to a state tax on nicotine liquids, and nicotine containing ecig refill cartriges, however 75% of wholesale is obsurd. Lumping ecigs into the "tobacco products" category will also ban all internet sales into and out of the state, effectively shutting down companies such as Mount Baker Vapor, and other online retailers based here in WA. The adopted substitute bill to HB 2795 as it's currently written will also require any B&M shops to pay taxes on all of there existing inventory as of July 1st within 10 days of the law going into effect. The majority of B&M's would not be able to afford this, forcing them to shut their doors.

I have been following this closely, and there is much discussion about it on the NW Vapers facebook group. There is also a Washington Vapers Advocacy Network FB page that all vapers in the state should keep an eye on. We have several B&M owners that are fighting this hard. The Rally to be held this Saturday, March 8th has already obtained the necessary permit, and the WA State DES is planning for 2000 people to attend. The Rally has an event page with more info. I urge anyone who can to invite as many people as possible to this event, our voice will be heard.

In addition, call, email, and write your district's House Reps and Senators. Be polite but filled with intent, tell your story and your opinions.

Sorry for the facebook heavy post, I know many do not like facebook for one reason or another. It is however a good avenue for organizing and getting people involved.

 

[tybin]

I thought theSenate bill wasn't going anywhere At this time, and its just the House bill that we need to worry about right now.

 

[tybin]

I think we need to make sure to get enough house democrats to come to our side.

 

[molimelight]

"REVENUE ESTIMATES
It is estimated that this bill will increase state revenues by $3.4 million in the 2013-15 Biennium and $38.8 million in the 2015-17 Biennium. Much of this revenue may actually be tax revenue that was lost from reduced sales of conventional cigarettes. The literature shows that the vast majority of e-cigarette users are current tobacco users. Hence, it is likely that there is some reduction in consumption of conventional cigarettes as a result of this fact. Also, if the federal government begins to regulate e-cigarettes to the same extent and with the same rigor as it does regular cigarettes, the estimate shown may no longer hold."

That is about as cynical and greedy as it gets. Politicians seem very adept at dividing and conquering. "We'll only tax these people or this smaller group over here. As long as the majority of the people aren't affected by it then they will pass it and let the other guy pay the bill." In this case they figure these people are ex-smokers so we'll just keep taxing them and everyone else will agree because it won't affect them. That's how they were able to tax analog tobacco products at 95% in the first place. And they figure the bonus here is that it will continue the revenue stream that they are going to lose from ex smokers!

 

[normajean999]

I just found this thread, but here is my take:

The House of Representatives just passed a democratic partisan budget that made some pretty big promises to create state revenue for education. House Bill 2795 is just a grasp for additional revenue from wherever they can get it. It still needs to be passed on the House Floor, and the Senate Floor, and it appears that the majority of the Republican Party is against it. Republicans have the Senate majority, which just may be our saving grace.

The supporters argue that it is an attempt to make ecigs too expensive for kids to buy, but we all know the initial costs for starting up on ecigs is already unattractive to most middle and high school age kids. Although vaping can and is much cheaper than smoking for many in the long run, the initial investment can be upwards of $100. Supporters also argue that since the vaping industry sued the FDA when they tried to classify ecigs as a medical device, that means that the industry wants ecigs to be classified as tobacco products. In reality a new classification needs to be accepted for vapor products, or whatever they want to call it.

I personally am not opposed to a state tax on nicotine liquids, and nicotine containing ecig refill cartriges, however 75% of wholesale is obsurd. Lumping ecigs into the "tobacco products" category will also ban all internet sales into and out of the state, effectively shutting down companies such as Mount Baker Vapor, and other online retailers based here in WA. The adopted substitute bill to HB 2795 as it's currently written will also require any B&M shops to pay taxes on all of there existing inventory as of July 1st within 10 days of the law going into effect. The majority of B&M's would not be able to afford this, forcing them to shut their doors.

I have been following this closely, and there is much discussion about it on the NW Vapers facebook group. There is also a Washington Vapers Advocacy Network FB page that all vapers in the state should keep an eye on. We have several B&M owners that are fighting this hard. The Rally to be held this Saturday, March 8th has already obtained the necessary permit, and the WA State DES is planning for 2000 people to attend. The Rally has an event page with more info. I urge anyone who can to invite as many people as possible to this event, our voice will be heard.

In addition, call, email, and write your district's House Reps and Senators. Be polite but filled with intent, tell your story and your opinions.

Sorry for the facebook heavy post, I know many do not like facebook for one reason or another. It is however a good avenue for organizing and getting people involved.

Great job summarizing at the important info. I do think however that it is still a 95% tax on the table. I have been minding my own business placing online orders and not active on the boards so this is all a blindside to me. Guess that what I get for thinking no one cares what I do on my own time. I have called every democratic member of the House today. I also emailed each one individually last night and again today. I've shared my finding with the Advocacy group on facebook. I encourage people serious about this to call every democrat Rep in the house that is undecided. Just calling our 2 local reps are not going to make this go away. They are all about to vote on this. Now is the time to act!

 

[tybin]

I think we need to make sure to get enough house democrats to come to our side.

There are twelve more Democrats than Republicans. How many have said they are willing to oppose this bill?

 

[DrMA]

I will NOT accept ANY additional tax on ecigs so long as traditional NRT products remain in a privileged position. Everybody who thinks otherwise, especially vapers, needs to get their head checked. Ecigs are clearly more effective than traditional NRT and demonstrably just as safe for users and bystanders.

How come this bill requires ecigs to be prescribed by a doc and purchased at a pharmacy to be exempt from the 75% confiscatory tax, when nic patches and nic gum can be purchased OTC from any convenience store with no additional tax by anyone over the age of 12?

I will also fight any and all efforts to treat ecigs any different than NRTs with respect to any definition, classification, restrictions for purchasing and/or use, taxation, advertising, and any and all other criteria. The only reasonable thing to do here is not ecigs=NRT, but rather ecig>>NRT.

I would however support a tax exemption or subsidy for ecigs to be funded from the tobacco tax fund and/or the TMSA state account.

 

[rothenbj]

If this passes, every hardware vendor should get together and sue. Batteries, cartridges and the e cig body are not tobacco products. Taxing them at these ridiculous rates and never taxing pipes, rolling paper, and all the various other items involved with with smoking for decades is unbelievable.

That being said, unless the taxes start killing the vendor's profits, they're not going to care. It never bothered the tobacco industry.

 

[brickfollett]

This bill is a freaking joke and makes me so angry. It honestly hurts society as a whole. As far as I'm concerned, E-cigs are the best way to quit smoking. While I was never an actual smoker, I definitely see the merit and allure of e-cigs as an analog alternative. My question is, will this tax sales made from online purchases? If not, then this bill won't affect the more advanced users. Provari is a Washington based company and my impression is that the tax would not affect online sales, which in turn would not affect the Provape company. However, if the online sales were taxed, this could be then end of the Provari as we know it, because I believe this is a 95% tax. What 95% of a $200 dollar Provari? That's something like 380 bucks! I think I would cry.
I wish our politicians would just get their heads out of their freakin butts and start doing whats best for the PEOPLE, not for the budget, or whatever motivations are behind the bill.

Another question is, WHY DO THE PEOPLE NOT GET TO VOTE ON THIS??? Why do we have to trust decisions like this to a handful of people sitting in an office, probably taking bribes or the equivalent from big tobacco or somebody? Alright I think I'm done with this, but I hope we get the point. Just really upsets me...

 

[DrMA]

Are you serious? If this tax were put to a referendum, it would pass by a landslide. Only a minor fraction of voters vape, and the remaining people would have no problem taxing something they'll never buy to fund education.

 

[rothenbj]

Are you serious? If this tax were put to a referendum, it would pass by a landslide. Only a minor fraction of voters vape, and the remaining people would have no problem taxing something they'll never buy to fund education.

Yeah, but consider adding a nickle to a can of soda for education or health and the masses will be up in arms. That's what happens when a minority is discriminated against..