150w or higher TC with adjustable TCR
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The prices are completely different, so the XCube 2 is certainly a contender depending on budget. The full XCube 2 mod can be purchased for less than the cost of the DNA 200 chip on its own.
$60 for the XCube 2 on 3FVape. You could buy 2 XCube 2s for the cost of the cheapest DNA 200 (VapeBoxe VBox200 @ $159) and have $39 to spare to buy something else. Or buy 2 x XCube 2 + 1 smok Koopor Mini for $155
Also there are few (if any?) replaceable 18650 mods currently using the DNA 200, so if there's a desire to use existing 18650s rather than a fixed Lipo, the Smok is currently the only choice.
The XCube underheats (probably by design), hence you need to set temp a bit higher, or adjust the TCR accordingly. I will be doing an analysis of the necessary TCR settings to get fully accurate temperature in the next days.
The XCube 2 (and its cheaper brother the Koopor Mini) is also unique in being the only mod to allow adjusting the locked resistance of the coil, which has theoretical benefits for accuracy in situations where your atomizer/build has a lot of static resistance. I say theoretical because I haven't yet tested it thoroughly, nor do I feel I have a huge occasion to use it as all my atomizers have very minimal SR. But it is unique and could be useful in some circumstances.
The XCube also has a much nicer on-mod design, with temperature adjusting simply with up/down buttons plus a detailed menu system combined with multi-button shortcuts to access other areas. Definitely a day-to-day superior on-mod experience than the DNA 200, although the 200's profiles make swapping TCRs a lot easier so if lots of different wires are used in rotation then it's likely quicker on the 200 once such profiles have been set up via the PC.
Though then the Smok does have the Android/iOS app allowing setting TCR quickly from a phone/tablet - if your device supports it (iPhone 4S and newer; Android 4.3 and newer as long as the device also supports Bluetooth 4 LE).
To be sure, the DNA 200 is superior in most every other way. But given the cost differences, it's far from a like-for-like comparison. I already have a DNA 200 and am getting another, and I certainly highly value the tweaking/analysing capabilities. If cost were no object, I would replace a lot of my older mods with them.
But cost is an object, and I would buy 2 x XCube + 1 x Koopor versus a third DNA 200, because I value having lots of mods in parallel, and if they're accurate (or can be made so) that's fine. And I only need one or at most two DNA 200s for the analysing features.
$60 for the XCube 2 on 3FVape. You could buy 2 XCube 2s for the cost of the cheapest DNA 200 (VapeBoxe VBox200 @ $159) and have $39 to spare to buy something else. Or buy 2 x XCube 2 + 1 smok Koopor Mini for $155
Also there are few (if any?) replaceable 18650 mods currently using the DNA 200, so if there's a desire to use existing 18650s rather than a fixed Lipo, the Smok is currently the only choice.
The XCube underheats (probably by design), hence you need to set temp a bit higher, or adjust the TCR accordingly. I will be doing an analysis of the necessary TCR settings to get fully accurate temperature in the next days.
The XCube 2 (and its cheaper brother the Koopor Mini) is also unique in being the only mod to allow adjusting the locked resistance of the coil, which has theoretical benefits for accuracy in situations where your atomizer/build has a lot of static resistance. I say theoretical because I haven't yet tested it thoroughly, nor do I feel I have a huge occasion to use it as all my atomizers have very minimal SR. But it is unique and could be useful in some circumstances.
The XCube also has a much nicer on-mod design, with temperature adjusting simply with up/down buttons plus a detailed menu system combined with multi-button shortcuts to access other areas. Definitely a day-to-day superior on-mod experience than the DNA 200, although the 200's profiles make swapping TCRs a lot easier so if lots of different wires are used in rotation then it's likely quicker on the 200 once such profiles have been set up via the PC.
Though then the Smok does have the Android/iOS app allowing setting TCR quickly from a phone/tablet - if your device supports it (iPhone 4S and newer; Android 4.3 and newer as long as the device also supports Bluetooth 4 LE).
To be sure, the DNA 200 is superior in most every other way. But given the cost differences, it's far from a like-for-like comparison. I already have a DNA 200 and am getting another, and I certainly highly value the tweaking/analysing capabilities. If cost were no object, I would replace a lot of my older mods with them.
But cost is an object, and I would buy 2 x XCube + 1 x Koopor versus a third DNA 200, because I value having lots of mods in parallel, and if they're accurate (or can be made so) that's fine. And I only need one or at most two DNA 200s for the analysing features.
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Another TCR adjusting mod to consider is the new Apollo Reliant 60W, the successor to the SXK mods as it uses an SXK chip, much upgraded from the existing SXK mods. Very accurate, nice design, nice usability. One of the only mods to feature simple up/down temperature control while still allowing the maximum wattage to be configured; mods like the Smok forego configuring max wattage as the cost of allowing simple up/down for temp. Though the Smok has its SOFT/NORMAL/MAX/MIN modes which are basically just adjustments of max wattage, in coarse steps.
Of course it doesn't do 150W so maybe not something the OP will consider. Frankly I wonder if higher power so important, at least for TC. I honestly can't say I notice any difference in my vapes having that much power - it only applies for the briefest fraction of a second at the start of the vape and then it's right down to much lower power. Also, the '160W' of the Smok is only achievable at 0.20Ω or below, so unless you're using Ni200 you won't see a lot of that power. I think it tops out around 100W for the Titanium builds I do around 0.40Ω
But maybe the OP does massive non-TC coils at very low resistance.
Oh, and it should be noted that if the DNA 200 is considered in 2 x 18650 mode, then it's max 130W. So doesn't technically meet the OP's requirement unless he uses it with a Lipo (which could still be 'replaceable' but I feel not what he meant by that.)
Of course it doesn't do 150W so maybe not something the OP will consider. Frankly I wonder if higher power so important, at least for TC. I honestly can't say I notice any difference in my vapes having that much power - it only applies for the briefest fraction of a second at the start of the vape and then it's right down to much lower power. Also, the '160W' of the Smok is only achievable at 0.20Ω or below, so unless you're using Ni200 you won't see a lot of that power. I think it tops out around 100W for the Titanium builds I do around 0.40Ω
But maybe the OP does massive non-TC coils at very low resistance.
Oh, and it should be noted that if the DNA 200 is considered in 2 x 18650 mode, then it's max 130W. So doesn't technically meet the OP's requirement unless he uses it with a Lipo (which could still be 'replaceable' but I feel not what he meant by that.)
3FVape also has the cigreen dna200 for $140. I wasn't taking budget into consideration.
Cool, didn't know about the Cigreen, that's a good price.
To be sure, if price is no object and one wants the best single mod available, the DNA 200 is the best choice. And as a rabid TC user and collector of all types of mods, I certainly had to have at least one, and two was preferable and I'll get even more as and when I can.
But for a normal TC user wanting to vape different wires at high power, the Smok certainly works and is a lot cheaper. And there are definitely benefits in having multiple mods versus just one. For a user who isn't going to spend much time analysing graphs and who wants to have several tanks/atomizers on the go, I couldn't honestly say I think it's better having one DNA 200 than two or three Smoks. (Of course I have no idea if that does or does not apply to the OP.)
If we were talking Random Man on the Street, it would be easier to recommend the DNA 200 because of its absolute accuracy. But for a forum user who can be told that the Smok requires an offset, and even read and use corrected TCR figures to adapt, that doesn't so much apply. I do wish Smok hadn't done the underheating crap though. I suppose there's a chance they'll fix it in a later FW, they are being quite good at responding to requests and complaints - recently adding Stainless Steel support, for example.
To be sure, if price is no object and one wants the best single mod available, the DNA 200 is the best choice. And as a rabid TC user and collector of all types of mods, I certainly had to have at least one, and two was preferable and I'll get even more as and when I can.
But for a normal TC user wanting to vape different wires at high power, the Smok certainly works and is a lot cheaper. And there are definitely benefits in having multiple mods versus just one. For a user who isn't going to spend much time analysing graphs and who wants to have several tanks/atomizers on the go, I couldn't honestly say I think it's better having one DNA 200 than two or three Smoks. (Of course I have no idea if that does or does not apply to the OP.)
If we were talking Random Man on the Street, it would be easier to recommend the DNA 200 because of its absolute accuracy. But for a forum user who can be told that the Smok requires an offset, and even read and use corrected TCR figures to adapt, that doesn't so much apply. I do wish Smok hadn't done the underheating crap though. I suppose there's a chance they'll fix it in a later FW, they are being quite good at responding to requests and complaints - recently adding Stainless Steel support, for example.
Boxer have a dual 650 version with the DNA200 restricted to 133W. Not cheap though - but very tempting...
Cool. The Cloudmaker Whiteout will soon have an option too - though I don't believe they've even fulfilled their pre-orders yet, so that might be a way away. Actually the site says Late September so maybe they're catching up.
And yeah it's not too cheap, $200 + $12 for the 2x650 kit. (Maybe still less than the Boxer though?)
And yeah it's not too cheap, $200 + $12 for the 2x650 kit. (Maybe still less than the Boxer though?)
less indeed. Boxer 133 available in Uk for £189....
As far as DNA200 mods, the only replaceable cell 3S model I've found is the SteamMonkey Vero...perhaps someone will come out with something that uses an Innocell at some point, or something similar. That, and budget, have kept me from buying one. I've looked at some of the 2S 18650 DNA200 mods, but I'd prefer the extra power overhead and battery life (I go through 6~8 25Rs in a day). The only non-replaceable DNA200 I've seriously considered is the Big Bully V2 with a 3.2Ah 3S lipo, but that's four times the price of the X-Cube II.
My vaping style is big coils. Right now, I'm using 16 strands of 32 gauge twisted, compressed, and wrapped with a layer of 30 gauge, all Kanthal A1. It holds six drops per coil without a wick. With coils like this, anything less than about 100 watts takes 5+ seconds to start making vapor, and less than 140-150 is a cool, wispy vape.
I plan to keep my build style more or less the same for TC; with stainless or titanium wire and adjustable TCR, I can clapton, twist, or otherwise manipulate TC wire and use the TCR calculator at Steam-Engine to put in the correct value.
I'm already familiar with the limitations of buck converters, like the IPV3 I'm using right now, so the X-Cube won't be any different in that respect. Most of my builds come out to a very low resistance even with Kanthal.
Lastly, unlike the average man on the street, I don't mind a learning curve at all. The fact that the X-Cube II is a complicated mod with lots of poorly explained features doesn't really bother me. They are issuing updates regularly, which I think is a good sign, but it's also a Smoktech mod, which gives me pause. Hopefully they fix the TC algorithm and make it fire true to temperature - but if not, I'm not extremely concerned, as long as I can adjust the maximum temperature and/or TCR to make it fire the way I want. Still, the fact that it does have this fairly major unaddressed flaw is another aspect which I can't help but feel reflects poorly on the quality of the mod.
My vaping style is big coils. Right now, I'm using 16 strands of 32 gauge twisted, compressed, and wrapped with a layer of 30 gauge, all Kanthal A1. It holds six drops per coil without a wick. With coils like this, anything less than about 100 watts takes 5+ seconds to start making vapor, and less than 140-150 is a cool, wispy vape.
I plan to keep my build style more or less the same for TC; with stainless or titanium wire and adjustable TCR, I can clapton, twist, or otherwise manipulate TC wire and use the TCR calculator at Steam-Engine to put in the correct value.
I'm already familiar with the limitations of buck converters, like the IPV3 I'm using right now, so the X-Cube won't be any different in that respect. Most of my builds come out to a very low resistance even with Kanthal.
Lastly, unlike the average man on the street, I don't mind a learning curve at all. The fact that the X-Cube II is a complicated mod with lots of poorly explained features doesn't really bother me. They are issuing updates regularly, which I think is a good sign, but it's also a Smoktech mod, which gives me pause. Hopefully they fix the TC algorithm and make it fire true to temperature - but if not, I'm not extremely concerned, as long as I can adjust the maximum temperature and/or TCR to make it fire the way I want. Still, the fact that it does have this fairly major unaddressed flaw is another aspect which I can't help but feel reflects poorly on the quality of the mod.
They're not alone in underheating coils and the theory is it's actually deliberate: that they'd rather underheat and therefore never fail a basic cotton burn test from ignorant YouTube reviewers, than be accurate and have some dumb YTer set fire to his cotton because he had a crap coil.
I hope it's going to be a short term trend, but unfortunately it is becoming a trend for now.
But with TCR adjusting mods it's not nearly so much of an issue. We just need to learn that instead of, say, 0.0035 for Titanium, we use 0.0037 or whatever the number turns out to be.
I hope it's going to be a short term trend, but unfortunately it is becoming a trend for now.
But with TCR adjusting mods it's not nearly so much of an issue. We just need to learn that instead of, say, 0.0035 for Titanium, we use 0.0037 or whatever the number turns out to be.
Absolutely. Since raising the TCR leads to a logarithmic increase, you can vary not just the final temperature, but the actual performance of the coil - how quickly it heats up, that is. Higher TCR with lower temperature cutoff (but tuned to the same actual temperature) will give you a faster heating coil. Not only that, but you can use many types of wire with the Xcube2, Dicodes mods, SXK DNA60, or DNA200 (or any other adjustable TCR mods I've missed), not just what's currently supported.
I'm not quite following why adjusting the TCR changes the heating rate of the coil?
The TCR is used by the mod to convert the live resistance readings into an estimated temperature. That estimated temperature is then used by its power algorithm to decide how much power to send to the coil. I don't believe there's any evidence that any mod considers the TCR in any way other than to give it a temperature. It's the temperature figure it then uses, comparing it to the user's configured maximum temperature to decide if the coil is already at temperature and, if not, how much power to apply to it to bring it to temperature.
So I can't see how changing the TCR and then adjusting the temperature accordingly changes the heating of the coil:
Now I suppose heating could be affected if mods varied their preheat according to hardcoded temperature rules, such as "pre heat at max until 150°C". But we know the DNA 200's pre heat is time based, not temperature based. And most other mods don't have a separate pre-heat at all, they simply throw all of the maximum available/configured wattage at the coil until it's at temp. (And the only reason I can see on the DNA 200 to lower its pre heat from the maximum possible is as a safety precaution; in general, I always want my coil at temperature in the shortest possible time.)
Am I missing something? What's the basis for your thinking TCR changing affects heating rate?
If you haven't already seen it, there's plenty more discussion on TCRs, TCR adjusting mods, and other TC wires - anything besides Ni200 - in my thread: TC beyond Ni200: Nickel Purity, Dicodes; Ti, SS, Resistherm NiFe30; Coefficient of Resistance
The TCR is used by the mod to convert the live resistance readings into an estimated temperature. That estimated temperature is then used by its power algorithm to decide how much power to send to the coil. I don't believe there's any evidence that any mod considers the TCR in any way other than to give it a temperature. It's the temperature figure it then uses, comparing it to the user's configured maximum temperature to decide if the coil is already at temperature and, if not, how much power to apply to it to bring it to temperature.
So I can't see how changing the TCR and then adjusting the temperature accordingly changes the heating of the coil:
- If I heat a 0.50Ω Titanium coil from 20°C to 240°C, its resistance will rise to 0.885Ω.
- If I enter the correct TCR, 0.0035, the mod will read a resistance rise of 0.50Ω -> 0.885Ω as being heated to 240°C.
- This is assuming for the moment an accurate mod that doesn't deliberately underheat
- If I now increase the TCR to 0.007, the mod will read 0.50Ω -> 0.885°C as being at a temperature of 130°C.
- So if I set the TCR to 0.007 and set the temperature to 130°C, the coil will actually be heated to 240°C (which the mod thinks is 130°C)
- Therefore with TCR 0.007 and temp 130°C, the mod should heat the coil from 20°C->240°C in exactly the same way as it would have had I set the TCR to the correct 0.0035 and the temperature to the actually desired 240°C.
- The mod can't tell the difference between the two cases - all it sees is temperature increasing up to its configured maximum.
Now I suppose heating could be affected if mods varied their preheat according to hardcoded temperature rules, such as "pre heat at max until 150°C". But we know the DNA 200's pre heat is time based, not temperature based. And most other mods don't have a separate pre-heat at all, they simply throw all of the maximum available/configured wattage at the coil until it's at temp. (And the only reason I can see on the DNA 200 to lower its pre heat from the maximum possible is as a safety precaution; in general, I always want my coil at temperature in the shortest possible time.)
Am I missing something? What's the basis for your thinking TCR changing affects heating rate?
If you haven't already seen it, there's plenty more discussion on TCRs, TCR adjusting mods, and other TC wires - anything besides Ni200 - in my thread: TC beyond Ni200: Nickel Purity, Dicodes; Ti, SS, Resistherm NiFe30; Coefficient of Resistance
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