A no-nicotine county

[TropicalBob]

Sarasota County, just north of where I live in Florida, yesterday banned smokers from employment with the county. At least, that was what the newspaper headlines said today. But, in fact, the county banned nicotine. It banned our electronic cigarettes, along with snus, Stonewall hard snuff and nasal snuff, all smokeless products. Because ... wannabe employees will be tested for nicotine in their blood, and, if present, they won't be hired. The not-necessarily-correct assumption is that a positive finding of nicotine means that they're smokers.

I'm sure our product isn't known to even one commissioner who voted for this ordinance. I'm not sure if knowledge would have made a difference. But I hate all users of various forms of tobacco and nicotine being lumped together with the unhealthiest of users, cigarette smokers. This will also kill pipe and cigar use, as well.

Here's a link to the entire article, a precursor of things to come:
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080520/NEWS/805200406/1661

 

[Evil Santa]

That will go to a court. Hell, i'd like to be the first in line to sue that county because i was discriminated against; for using a LEGAL substance off the clock, and in my own time.

 

[TropicalBob]

Another Florida government agency was taken to court by a smoking employee for a similar ordinance -- and the smoker lost. The Florida Supreme Court upheld the right of the agency to set "no smoking" as a condition of employment. Sarasota's law is based on that case. This, however, goes beyond smoking. It bans nicotine use, as if this were marijuana or ....... If we e-smoke, our blood streams contain nicotine.

Understand that Sarasota is one of the wealthiest, most educated, most artistically sophisticated counties in an expensive state. These aren't backwoods types passing this law. That's why I'm concerned that others will follow Sarasota's lead (Sarasota was the first "green" Florida county where government types drive hybrid vehicles, etc). Very progressive county. Bad news for us.

Just FYI: In the same meeting this ordinance was passed, the county banned music that is audible beyond 25 feet from a car. The penalty is a massive fine and confiscation of the car, which will cost another $150 to reclaim. There will be NO warning tickets.

 

[Evil Santa]

Right. They are banning ALL nicotine use, including exposure to second-hand smoke.

Plus, their argument that smokers cost the health-care industry more than 'healthy' individuals is absolutely absurd, as found in a recent study that compared the cost of health-care for smokers, obese individuals, and healthy individuals.

http://www.jointogether.org/news/resear ... ty-no.html

 

[TropicalBob]

I read that when it first came out -- and laughed my .... off. It's true. But look at the story on Sarasota and note who provided the health "savings" figures. Your government and mine. The CDC. Those figures are every bit as cobbled as the death rates for second-hand smoke inhalers. But just try to fight them. Just tell your local government officials that federal agencies are full of it, that they're making things up. You won't get far. You'll lose every time. The majority (non-smokers) overwhelmingly despise us. They want a tobacco-free, smoke-free, nicotine-free world. We're in the way.

I think I'll go to my mountaintop cabin and smoke my e-cig on the porch.

 

[Evil Santa]

Land of the free indeed.

 

[EricD]

nazis

 

[BananaDoc]

wow... and Sarasota is one of my fav areas in FLA... LOVE seista key The new marina is gorgeous too.... st armands circle. SO nice!

Any chance to appeal? They are banning nicotine as this is easy to test for... but snuff or ecigs are not harming anyone...Hmmmmmm... I suppose i could vape there--i am on zero nic... could that be an in for an appeal?

 

[TropicalBob]

I think you'd be perfectly legal with your no-nic e-cig.

The county not long ago banned smoking on Siesta Key and all beaches, plus all parks and publicly owned facilities. This morning, the newspaper had a story that the Florida city that first imposed the no-smokers-hired rule, North Miami, has since withdrawn the law. They couldn't get enough qualified applicants for jobs, particularly police and firemen. One of every five American adults smokes. That's a large pool of talent to throw away.

 

[jimldk]

What happen to America..the land of the Free and plentiful??...I was raised by my Asian culture to admire the Land of Milk and Honey ..now America is different..somewhat paranoid , phobic and biased...and still with all this ban here and there..aggression continues with guns freely sold and somewhat uncontrolled..

Somehow, I'm glad I am still here in Asia amidst the poverty and petty crimes and a lot of personal freedom...but unfortunately loves to "ape" the west...hope it won't comes to that here..the public will go Mad!!..Just imagine you'll lose your job just because you are a smoker...that is ridiculous!! :roll:

 

[Mr.Darcy]

ive often thought that George Orwell's novel 1984 was prophetic with regards to how modern western society is "progressing"...

 

[leaford]

What happen to America..the land of the Free and plentiful??...I was raised by my Asian culture to admire the Land of Milk and Honey ..now America is different..somewhat paranoid , phobic and biased...and still with all this ban here and there..aggression continues with guns freely sold and somewhat uncontrolled..
:roll:

America's golden age is just a myth. There was never any milk, and no money, no honey. It's always been a land of opportunity, not bounty. it's not really getting any more paranoid, phobic and biased, etc. It's always been that way. It was different issues in different times, but people are still people and the more things change the more they stay the same. Prohibition, banning marijuana, etc. And the gun violence angle gets WAAAAYYY overblown in the overseas media. A high crime rate is a few dozens per 100,000. Most people never see a crime except in the same movies and TV shows you watch on STAR Channel in Asia.

 

[leaford]

ive often thought that George Orwell's novel 1984 was prophetic with regards to how modern western society is "progressing"...

Dude, If it was prophetic, it's a failed prophecy. Check your calander.

And western civilization has been "falling" for its entire history. A least according to every generation that's lived through it. Progress is an illusion. A mere judgement. There is only change, and progress is change which pleases you.

 

[Mr.Darcy]

i wouldnt suggest that western civilisation was falling,but technology which was not present during other periods of history is what makes this time so different from the preceeding historical periods.we are being monitored more often,and more effectively than was ever possible before-sure,thats a good thing for catching terrorists and criminals,i dont dispute that its probably necessary in this day and age,but the point i was making is that we are ALL being monitored now one way or another(cctv,internet,mobilephones etc),and so personal freedom has been eroded as a consequence-and that is no illusion.thats what i meant by my 1984 reference,lets not get hung up on dates.hey,at least in the novel people were still free to smoke! still,it was written in 1948 when people didnt realise how unhealthy it was,and orwell was a chain smoker.anyway,this isnt a book club,and its a bit off topic.just drawing some comparisons.

 

[leaford]

we are being monitored more often,and more effectively than was ever possible before-sure,thats a good thing for catching terrorists and criminals,i dont dispute that its probably necessary in this day and age,but the point i was making is that we are ALL being monitored now one way or another(cctv,internet,mobilephones etc),and so personal freedom has been eroded as a consequence

Not really. I mean, sure some more wiretapping and key word mining is going on. But the courts are taking on both issues, and besides historically speaking that's nothing. Compare that to McCarthyism, or the Sedition Act. Japanese internment, etc. Do you really think the average person, lost anonymously in the crowd, is under more survaillance than 50 years ago, or a hundred, when the population even in the cities was much smaller, so personal contact with authority was more frequent. A few generations ago it was much more likely for the average citizen to be under scrutiny. AND we were all so much less concerned about it, too, because we trusted the government, and were more willing to cooperate, to turn in a suspicious neighbor, etc.

And all that tech is a double edged sword. They can put a camera on every corner, but they can't put a man on every monitor to watch them. They can implant RFID chips in all our arms when we get our flu shots, but they can't track them all. We ALL can, however, sue their uppity asses when the news of the hidden chips/cameras or whatever gets out. Which it always does.

Our freedoms have always been threatened, and always will be. Mostly by our own well meaning selves, too. Vigilance is the price of freedom, and that's OK. I don't get worked up over it because for every intrusive law or lawmaker, there's a couple dozen radical privacy advocates crying foul over it. That's how public policy works. One side pushes its agenda, and the other punches back. I just want to inject a bit of perspective into it is all. The Patriot act didn't tear up the bill of rights. And those who see it as an infringement have a process they can, and are, following to oppose it. Sue, write to your reps, protest, and even run for office. It's all good. Politics is a big pendulum; it swings wildly from one extreme to the other, but in the end it all always returns to the middle.

 

[Mr.Darcy]

ok,maybe its different in the usa,but in the uk i do think the average person is under more more surveillance than ever,i think thats fairly well established-whether theres a man there or not,its still surveillance.i dont have a man watching me as i use this computer,but im still subject to surveillance.even shops loyalty cards gather information on the individual,and know what they buy,their likes and dislikes.dont you think thats intrusive?in london you are caught on cctv on average of 300 times a day.if i use my mobile phone i can be tracked.speedcameras are everywhere,so your car is tracked.i know what you mean about mccarthyism,but not every single person in the usa was wiretapped and had their home bugged by the fbi.now EVERYONE is being monitored constantly and remotely.in the uk the government are trying to bring in a bill where,in the near future,everyone will be required by law to carry an id card at all times with their personal and biometric information on it or risk arrest-i know you'll liken this to people carrying papers during ww2-but is that a good thing?maybe there is nothing new under the sun,but my point is that of course in the past people were monitored,but not so much and not so easily.one thing is sure-we ARE constantly being monitored-and it is going to continue,no matter who speaks out against it,and as technology progresses its only gonna get easier to monitor us-thats how things are in the modern world.but we cant live in the dark ages,unless we shun technology and society.thats the price we pay for all the good things technology has given us,of which there are many.now...can we agree to disagree and call this debate a draw and move back to vaping?ive enjoyed it tho!

 

[leaford]

Darn it. Whenever I get to enjoy a good debate the other person wants to move on. :x :x Why is it that the only people willing to debate at length are the a-holes who take it personally? Nice reasonable people like you are the best, but always too quick to agree to disagree.

 

[Mr.Darcy]

yes,i must admit it was most enjoyable.verbal jousting with articulate people like you is stimulating!

 

[leaford]

Sorry, but by chance I ran across two perfect examples of what I mean. This is why America, and the western world generally, still deserves to be called Free, bacause this is what countries without free speech really look like:
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/a ... acism.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/2008052 ... n..05k24cA

Sorry, but the very fact that you can compare western society to 1984 proves that we're not a Big Brother society. The Londoners of the novel would never have been allowed to. OTOH, the fact that you (in the general sense) DO make the comparison is part of the social dynamic that will keep us from becoming that. So, bravo.

 

[Mr.Darcy]

and in both cases,the people were caught and charged because of information which was gained using technology.therefore proving my point that we are all subject to monitoring which was unavailable in previous periods-in any modern developed society.in the novel the whole world is subject to totalitarianism-not just oceania-therefore you agree with me on the comparison.im just commenting on our piece of it as an example,because thats all we have personal experience of,and in the novel only oceania's policies apply,not eurasia or eastasia.people are charged using the internet as a survelliance tool constantly in the west also.im not suggesting we arent still relatively free- i didnt say that things were EXACTLY like in 1984,or ever will be...im just saying that we are being watched more closely,more often,and more effectively than ever before.the proof is irrefutable. (you arent letting this one go,are you leaford?)