An Open Letter To Ben from a customer/Sys Admin (not a web developer)

Status
Not open for further replies.

fogMann

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
May 4, 2013
204
184
Chicago, IL, USA
To be honest, I'm curious as to the profit margins involved in selling ejuice, and wether or not they support a mid sized business at all. It's entirely possible that there is a diminishing return on investment and infrastructure (basically more hands mixing and shipping) than is worthwhile to support. So many of the most popular juice makers are constantly out of stock or only open for moments at a time that one would think that somebody out there would take it seriously enough to make a professional run at a full blown business. Hell, witha product like bobas combined with chemical addiction, I'm surprised investors aren't lining up to buy these small companies and generate a manufacturing line based on two or three recipes from each.

My opinion is that what you describe will happen. I assume that big tobacco is waiting for the dust to settle regarding FDA and tax regulations. I suspect that every major tobacco company has a small team investigating ecigs, doing market research and considering their own formulations (and budgeting a few bucks to buy the better ones already established).

I expect that the business model we see now will be gone within the next few years. Just like their were several hundred automobile companies when the car was first introduced and now a winnowed down to far fewer, we'll see the same with ecigs. If what seems like the inevitable happens, the small operations will be crushed by rising capital costs, regulations and compliance:

1. Regulations that either require strict age verification or eliminate internet sales altogether. $
2. Medical safety testing and compliance. This would require staffing with serious medical/pharmaceutical professionals. $$$$
3. Tax collection and all the associated tracking and documentation. $$

It's apparent that most favorite juice vendors are struggling with cash flow, leverage and economies of scale. If they don't have the resources to fund sizable inventory and keep their pipeline filled or (seriously fund a serious web site effort), the added burden of the above factors will crush them and big business will step in. (I'm not criticizing anyone. It's simply a matter of cash flow; not talent, intentions or operational skills.)

The downside is higher cost and probably fewer choices for us consumers. But to be honest, I think that there are maybe 100 really good/great juices out there and a probably a few thousand ho-hum or downright crappy ones.

The upside is that perhaps you'll get your juice at the corner store, in stock, with a 2 minute wait at the checkout line instead of wasting hours stalking a web site like an idiot (like I have been). Further upside, while many seem to disavow the risk, the potential for medical harm would be greatly reduced. (Do you KNOW what's in your juice? Do you feel completely safe vaping something formulated by a guy whose only credentials are passing high school biology [maybe].)

I think the days of the small, unregulated, internet-based juice vendor are numbered. In the long run, we may be better off, although regulation generally means over-regulation and that will cost us in money and choices. Most of the little guys or the bigger ones with low cost but ho-hum flavors will fade away. Our heros, like AVE and a few others, have a good chance of a nice retirement package.
 

Fred Garvin

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Fogman beat me to it....

Let's say you have a successful business with a popular product, but you can't keep up....so you need to invest serious $$$$$ to upgrade the business.

Normal progression for small business growth.

BUT....what if you invest all that money, only to have the FDA turn around and outlaw your product....or regulate it so heavily the model is unworkable?

Take a chance? Oh what to do....what to do.....it's easy when it's someone else's money......
 

Fred Garvin

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Of course, with that being said.....if it were "My" business.....I would not close the store. It's a web based Internet business and should be open 24/7/365. I would be upset taking my site down. There's more to my business than ordering wildly popular Juice A. I'd just mark it out of stock so nobody could order it, refilling stock levels daily only to a certain amount.
 
Last edited:

Jethead

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 1, 2013
663
650
60
Hampton, Virginia
The upside is that perhaps you'll get your juice at the corner store, in stock, with a 2 minute wait at the checkout line instead of wasting hours stalking a web site like an idiot (like I have been). Further upside, while many seem to disavow the risk, the potential for medical harm would be greatly reduced. (Do you KNOW what's in your juice? Do you feel completely safe vaping something formulated by a guy whose only credentials are passing high school biology [maybe].)

I feel safer vaping something made in someone's kitchen intended to help me stay off cigarettes, than vaping something "formulated" by a trained, licensed chemist who's boss is big tobacco. EFF THAT!

So, yeah, pretty much agree with everything you said, and I believe it will happen, but I DON'T LIKE IT. I'll just either have to completely beg Ben for the recipe and DIY or completely quit.

SUCKS.
 

fogMann

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
May 4, 2013
204
184
Chicago, IL, USA
I feel safer vaping something made in someone's kitchen intended to help me stay off cigarettes, than vaping something "formulated" by a trained, licensed chemist who's boss is big tobacco. EFF THAT!

Hi JetHead.

I would argue (I don't really mean to ARGUE) that you would feel better about vaping a kitchen brew, not safer. I certainly agree with your implication that big tobacco is a bunch of money-grubbing pigs (actually pigs are nice animals, my apologies to them for this comment). Go over and look through the DIY posts. You'll see some astonishingly hair-brained ingredient suggestions a few of these guys have considered. I'm waiting to see Drain-O, Anti-Freeze or Strychnine suggested as a way to really pack in a 'flavor punch'. At some point, one of these toothless idiots is going to build a web site and start hawking their miracle juice, if one or two haven't already.

For both of us, let's hope someone besides big tobacco becomes a factor; someone with a heart, soul and conscience. Unfortunately, big tobacco has the money, marketing/distribution and customer recognition and will inevitably be a big player.

We can only speculate. Time will tell.

P.S. There is Boba clone recipe posted in the DIY section you might look into. It probably isn't spot-on but it sounds like it's getting close. I'm hedging my bets and have just ordered ingredients, supplies, etc and plan to try my hand at that one and a few others. AVE will eventually come through but I doubt this is the last we've seen of problems. For the longer term I'm adopting a survivalist mentality. Stock up plenty of nic solution in the freezer, develop a few good recipes and I'll be set for the impending juice holocaust, at least with my own second tier concoctions. It's way less than 50% the cost of retail juice and that's based on the current, unregulated/untaxed retail prices.
 

cigzag

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 2, 2013
164
215
Northern Indiana
Alien Vision just made a statement on FaceBook.....


I'll have an update later today but let me give you some idea of what is going on.

The website was tested yesterday and the coding... did well. The server wasn't so lucky. The server was well below the threshold for what specifically asked for. Main point, it wasn't the dedicated server we asked for. This issue was "taken care of" so far into the beginning of this build process I failed to revisit it and give it the attention it deserved.

Now, the website is very much offline as GoDaddy switches us from an Economy shared server plan with 100 connections to the dedicated server we wanted at the start. The most aggravating part being that it may take days to get the website back up.

All of our information is still on the website, invoices and charged orders. Every charged order,even if you received an error message, will be processed. I only need to see what order numbers were paid for and I can adjust their status to "processing" if they aren't already. Mostly, I just want access to the invoices so that I can get my new wookies working on orders today.

For now there is no timeline on when the store will be open. Rest assured, when it does become available soon, we will be processing and shipping orders.
 

saso81

Full Member
Verified Member
Apr 27, 2013
66
38
Los Angeles
This is a poor idea. Its pretty clear that Ben has his idea about how he wants to run his business and Ben doesn't really care what other people think about that.

I guess we all have our own opinions..... As it is most people might be waiting weeks or months just to get their orders in all the while turning their schedules upside down to get online every day to no avail. If I have to wait a month I'd rather just place my order now and wait that month without having to set my sleep/wakeup schedule every freaking morning around their opening.

I've looked at all the whiners on FB acting like it's the apocalypse and just shook my head. But, honestly at this point maybe Ben should entertain some other ideas of how to get it right, it shouldn't be this difficult. Just look at the non response you got from him when trying to help.
 

Jethead

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 1, 2013
663
650
60
Hampton, Virginia
Hi JetHead.

I would argue (I don't really mean to ARGUE) that you would feel better about vaping a kitchen brew, not safer. I certainly agree with your implication that big tobacco is a bunch of money-grubbing pigs (actually pigs are nice animals, my apologies to them for this comment). Go over and look through the DIY posts. You'll see some astonishingly hair-brained ingredient suggestions a few of these guys have considered. I'm waiting to see Drain-O, Anti-Freeze or Strychnine suggested as a way to really pack in a 'flavor punch'. At some point, one of these toothless idiots is going to build a web site and start hawking their miracle juice, if one or two haven't already.

For both of us, let's hope someone besides big tobacco becomes a factor; someone with a heart, soul and conscience. Unfortunately, big tobacco has the money, marketing/distribution and customer recognition and will inevitably be a big player.

We can only speculate. Time will tell.

P.S. There is Boba clone recipe posted in the DIY section you might look into. It probably isn't spot-on but it sounds like it's getting close. I'm hedging my bets and have just ordered ingredients, supplies, etc and plan to try my hand at that one and a few others. AVE will eventually come through but I doubt this is the last we've seen of problems. For the longer term I'm adopting a survivalist mentality. Stock up plenty of nic solution in the freezer, develop a few good recipes and I'll be set for the impending juice holocaust, at least with my own second tier concoctions. It's way less than 50% the cost of retail juice and that's based on the current, unregulated/untaxed retail prices.


I get it, I try not to argue on the internet as well.

Thankfully I do not yet need any Boba's because I still have some! :) I'll be fine as long as they open for orders within a week. In fact I'll be fine even if they don't. as I'll just vape something else I like almost as much.
 

zapped

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Nov 30, 2009
6,056
10,545
55
Richmond, Va...Right in Altria's back yard.
I wanted to point out that its much easier to change our ordering habits than badgering a vendor to change a system thats worked very well for them up until the site went down for totally unrelated reasons.

Most longtime Ave customers have gotten used to buying multiple 100ml bottles at a time and then reordering weeks or even months before they are in danger of running out. I also buy a couple of extra 10ml sample bottles in addition to my regular order as I slowly make my way through trying all of their juice.

I understand this presents a problem to people who just want to try them.Id suggest getting verified and keeping an eye on the classifieds and also the PIF threads.You might have more success and less frustration that way.

When everything is up and running correctly Ive never had to wait more than 3 days to get an order in and it usually ships the very next day. 1 week total from ordering to my mailbox is WAY better than waiting 2-3 weeks or longer before an order even ships like some of you are asking for by taking juice orders 24-7.

It might involve a little more work on our parts but then just about anything in life thats worth it usually does. I dont think the same thing can be said for some of the other vendors who are open 24 hours a day, otherwise we'd all be on their sites and threads instead of here.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread