Any inexpensive mods support single 21700 and decent TC?

[GeorgeS]

Im a temperature control researcher

Then you'll know that holding a steady and accurate temperature as measured by scientific devices is not the 'holly grail' of TC vaping.

Things like is the vape smooth, feel the same temperature from start to finish and feel the same if chain vaping come to mind. Does the vape/temperature seem the same each time you pick up your mod for a vape? If your wick runs dry is it going to burn your cotton? Will the software allow you to lock your resistance? Is it going to endlessly prompt you if you have a new coil? Is it going to 'kick' you out of TC mode in to power mode?

All the above come more to mind when selecting a TC mod then the scientific measurements in a lab.

I have over a handful of each: Yihi, Dicodes, Eleaf (and a few others that can use 'Artic Fox' firmware) and get what I would call a decent vape out of all of them. (note: the stock firmware in many cases was not bad, just the 3rd party firmware has more features)

Most (if not all) folks that "test" TC modes on mods use the worse wire available for TC, namely stainless steel. The TC mode was invented to use Ni wire (TCR-600) and later added Ti-01 (TCR-366) and finally SS (TCR-88-102). SS has the lowest TCR value of the three.(Personally, I only use NiFe52 (TCR-404).) Many of the testers used fairly or very low ohm coils that would be a challenge for expensive scientific equipment to measure accurately, let alone < $100 consumer electronic devices. (personally my builds are 0.3-0.6+ ohms)

True, the crappy for TC SS wire is a challenge on many if not most devices. However if a TC vape user puts to use wire types with higher TCR values, the devices that may struggle with SS (and its stupidly low TCR) seem to work just fine.

g.

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

Im a temperature control researcher, and can give you definite answers on this backed with evidence (see here for latest TC tests and a list of mods tested so far imgur.com/a/KQKCH1H). Please note that YiHi powered devices "tempearture stripe" and often exceed the set temperature, because they are based on PWM, which gives a wide range of temperature outcomes (they cant control the power, only distance between pulses), so its not flat like a DC mod. Any DNA powered board will be great (mirage, odin mini). Only geekvape mods with the Nuvoton chipset work properly, everything else seems to perform badly so far. Probably dont bother with vaporesso, their temperature control is some of the worst I have seen so far. Smok is actually really good, once you configure the TCR correctly. Probably avoid VooPoo because of an 80W limit in temperature control. Innokin is very hit-and-miss. Avoid DiCodes (this will shock many, but their 21700 powered Dani25 mod is a temperature control disaster, see empirical data I have published). Initial testing of istick mods has not shown great results, full testing coming soon. I havent tested cold steel yet, so no comment there.

You should consider posting your research on ECF in your own blog. I have found that the imgur audience as a whole is very anti-vape. You'll get a better, targeted audience here.

 

[AussieGeek]

Then you'll know that holding a steady and accurate temperature as measured by scientific devices is not the 'holly grail' of TC vaping.
g.

"Things like is the vape smooth, feel the same temperature from start to finish and feel the same if chain vaping come to mind" absolutely agree...which is completely objectively observable from the measured temperature outcomes I post. I can literally see the difference we subjectively feel between YiHi, DiCoDes, and DNA. Maybe take a look at some of my other tests, you will see what I mean. I can objectively explain why YiHi feels like it "hits harder" and "produces a better range of flavour" as so many say (you might be particularly interested in the results for G Class and VK530).

I am not sure what you define temperature control as, if not controlling the temperature; so I think I disgree that you cannot measure this in the way that I am. Aside from the extensive research I have been doing, based on 10 years vaping (and TC vaping exclusively since that was a thing) its clear to me that if a mod cant hold a steady and accurate temperature, it cant deliver a good temperature control outcome (sometimes it can still deliver dry hit protection, like DiCoDes, but often it cannot even do that).

Im definitely not saying that the best TC vape is necessarily steady and flat, I am saying only a mod that can produce a steady and flat outcome when set at a very high power level can actually "control the temperature". If it cannot control the temperature, then its harder to get the TC vape you want, regardless of your preferred temperature curve during an inhale. This is where Replay is really clever - its real temperature control, for whatever temperature curve you want on your draw. This relies on top notch temperature control that that you can observe (see my test results for DNA mods - new C boards are actually not quite as stable as old boards, so its a tradeoff for the higher voltages).

There are actually three categories of temperature control I have observed:
Temperature feedback loopers: these produces a rollercoaster temperature outcome that is wavy, inconsistent temperature etc. This is most cheap, older mods. Nobody wants this.
Temperature thresholders: these pump in fixed power levels and either turn that power on or off based on theshold temperature conditions. These produce temperature striping usually, wide bands of temperature, not tight lines. These include PWM mods, mostly YiHi. Some people prefer this even if their set temperature is really a "minimum",and there is wide variance above it.
True temperature controllers: on these you can set the power to maximum, chuck on any coil and never fear for a dry hit or unstable vape, because it managers the power exceptionally well. These are the likes of DNA mods. These are able to give the most tailored TC vape with the most precise control, but often have only a very narrow band of temperature.

Does this make sense?

I am using specially built equipment and analysis tools (based on arduino and texas instruments) which has been calibrated and verified with multiple methods. I use a full range of resistances, masses and coil states in my tests by the way. I dont think I need to explain why I dont address Ni or Ti wire, we all know why.

 

[AussieGeek]

You should consider posting your research on ECF in your own blog. I have found that the imgur audience as a whole is very anti-vape. You'll get a better, targeted audience here.

Indeed all my imgur posts are hidden, for this reason, they are really posted over on reddit's largest vape forums, and here. I am building a website to hold not only the posts, but also the raw data and how to replicate tests, in case anyone else wants to replicate or do a better job than I am capable of.

 

[GeorgeS]

Much like you TC vaping is all I do. I still own and use my first TC MOD, a SXMini using the SX350J. It was one of the first TC mods on the market ~6yrs ago when TC got started.

While with lab equipment you can measure differences but in regular vaping, I see no difference between my Yihi, Dicodes and other TC mods. (I even own a few DNA mods) For me once the resistance of a cold atomizer is locked in, they all pretty much vape the same.

I use a full range of resistances, masses and coil states in my tests by the way. I dont think I need to explain why I dont address Ni or Ti wire, we all know why.

Other than the 'masses' has seemingly embraced SS as the 'go to' wire type for everything I think you need to explain as there is nothing wrong with those wire types. Ni was tossed because it was to soft and hard for folks to work with so users moved to harder metals. Some uneducated users tossed Ti because if dry burned (you got the coil glowing) it left a toxic residue that was easily washed off. I settled on NiFe as it had a decently high TCR and is easy to work with. SS is just the worse wire to use for TC vaping.

For years I've thought that many users dislike TC vaping simply because they they are using the wrong wire type. (forgetting for the moment their downright silly exotic coil builds)

Interesting hobby to have. Do you somehow forward your results to the manufacturers?

In any case, I have some Eleaf Pico's inbound along with two other mods. While most of the Pico's will just go into the stash the others will be fun to play with for a while.

g.

 

[AussieGeek]

While with lab equipment you can measure differences but in regular vaping, I see no difference between my Yihi, Dicodes and other TC mods. g.

In this case you are the perfect audience for my testing, because there are massive differences between them, not least of all due to PWM vs DC vs hybridised power delivery/management methods. The differences are not obvious on all builds. I can subjectively feel these differences on builds at the extremes in particular (very high/low mass, very high/low resistance, combinations of those), but it becomes really obviously when you look at the power signal, and the impact that has on the actual temperature. Take a look at old DNA, New DNA, YiHi Cheap, YiHi expensive, DiCoDes and Geekvape Aegis results I have posted, I think you will start to make sense of a lot of things you intuitively know from your years of TC vaping but can see for the first time.

I wont state my position, but in my view Ni became unpopular due to the prevalence of nickel allergies and perceived risks of heavy metal contamination of juice/wicks/tanks when left for long periods without use and due to people "glowing" coils which produces oxidation and flaking off of materials. Similar concerns emerged for Ti. You may be able to easily wash off your coils, but disposable coil users probably dont or cant. There are some people with SS316L allergies, but its much rarer, and its a much more stable material especially when steeped. Not to mention the difficulty working with Ni and to some extent Ti wire.

Nifethal seems like a decent alternative, I just didnt get any with my dicodes. Will test another day.
You say SS is the worst TC material, yet I can show you near perfect outcomes on a range of mods across the full price range...so maybe that was true 5 years ago, but its not an issue now. Its arguably the TC material with the least potential hazards (further research required before anyone can take an absolute position I think).

Of course I share all my results with the manufacturers. Some engage, others dont. Hopefully out-of-the box TC experience will improve for example, some just have the wrong TCR value set, and its easy to fix in a firmware update.

Im struggling to test Arctic Fox because the mods I have that are compatible are reading the coil resistances very inaccurately for the low ohm builds (istick pico and wismec predator...just what you get with cheap hardware maybe? Or maybe mine are too old and have oxidised internally?). May just publish results for the higher ohm builds. I definitely had a better time with those mods with arctic fox installed (subjectively).

 

[GeorgeS]

In this case you are the perfect audience for my testing, because there are massive differences between them, not least of all due to PWM vs DC vs hybridised power delivery/management methods. The differences are not obvious on all builds. I can subjectively feel these differences on builds at the extremes in particular (very high/low mass, very high/low resistance, combinations of those), but it becomes really obviously when you look at the power signal, and the impact that has on the actual temperature. Take a look at old DNA, New DNA, YiHi Cheap, YiHi expensive, DiCoDes and Geekvape Aegis results I have posted, I think you will start to make sense of a lot of things you intuitively know from your years of TC vaping but can see for the first time.

This might be why I don't really see a difference. I use low mass single wire builds with NiFe52 that fall into the 0.3-0.6 ohm range. On all the mods I use I set the power (or Joules) to 30 and the temperature to 400F. Set temperature is reached within 1/2 a second.

While on some cheaper lessor mods (the Istick40 comes to mind here) there's obvious 'pulsing' of the vape output and on others if the button is just pressed and held, the values might jump all over the place. On Artic Fox it will quickly switch from 'temperature protection' to a temperature and power value while the resulting vape will seem to be smooth.

Nifethal seems like a decent alternative, I just didnt get any with my dicodes. Will test another day.

Odd, I think all my Dicodes mods came with a small (a few feet) of NIFE30. Then I got my Dicodes from 'creamdevape' in England. It might be something special that they do. Dicodes does claim that their mods are 'optimized' for NIFE30 (whatever that means).

You say SS is the worst TC material, yet I can show you near perfect outcomes on a range of mods across the full price range...so maybe that was true 5 years ago, but its not an issue now. Its arguably the TC material with the least potential hazards (further research required before anyone can take an absolute position I think).

Back in the day only DNA mods could handle SS as the cheaper and lessor mods simply did not have the resolution to handle the low TSR. While this may of changed and your testing shows that even some inexpensive offerings can now handle it properly I still don't own any SS. (I get my NIFE from Germany)

Of course I share all my results with the manufacturers. Some engage, others dont. Hopefully out-of-the box TC experience will improve for example, some just have the wrong TCR value set, and its easy to fix in a firmware update.

Im struggling to test Arctic Fox because the mods I have that are compatible are reading the coil resistances very inaccurately for the low ohm builds (istick pico and wismec predator...just what you get with cheap hardware maybe? Or maybe mine are too old and have oxidised internally?). May just publish results for the higher ohm builds. I definitely had a better time with those mods with arctic fox installed (subjectively).

I have one of those atomizer resistance meters. It almost never reads the same resistance of any of my mods, I just use it for checking for shorts and the like. Different mods and different chipsets will read the resistance differently. However, on mods that support the function, once the cold resistance of a atomizer is read and locked in, the vape is consistent (at least it is on the mods that did not get tossed as junk! ) Most times my mods are set to 400F, sometimes set to 380F.

2021 will likely bring to my state a 65% tax on vaping gear. While I have lots of gear already in my stash because of the issues at the national level, I do have 5ea of Pico 18650's and Pico 21700's inbound. I could send you one to play with.

Cheers,

g.

 

[Mordacai]

@GeorgeS, the thing with Dicodes Resistitherm wire is that the TCR is actually known. As the composition has been made to Dicodes stringent standards.

 

[GeorgeS]

@GeorgeS, the thing with Dicodes Resistitherm wire is that the TCR is actually known. As the composition has been made to Dicodes stringent standards.

Sure, its just NIFE30 with a TCR of 320.

While I have some I rarely use it as I opt for the higher TCR of NIFE52 in my builds.

BTW: Dicodes mods operate perfectly fine with NIFE52.


g.

 

[AussieGeek]

Sure, its just NIFE30 with a TCR of 320.
While I have some I rarely use it as I opt for the higher TCR of NIFE52 in my builds.
BTW: Dicodes mods operate perfectly fine with NIFE52.
g.

That is something I have been really interested in, is how does it perform with resistherm. Maybe all the waviness does go away somehow. I did look at trying to get some but it will cost me around $50+ to get the smallest amount, and since I probably wont use it other than to update this forum, it seems like a lower priority than buying more common mods to test at the moment.
I really do want to test the pico with and wihtout arctic fox, I will try to find another one on sale if I can. Your generous offer to send me one will cost you more than the mod on shipping down under unfortunately.
Now if someone wanted to lend me their other model DiCoDes to see if they suffer the same issues on SS as then Dani25...that I think is worth doing (and I promise to treat it like my own child and send it back).

 

[GeorgeS]

Wow, just wow. A quick surf turns up the Dicodes wire costing $22 a 10M spool here in the states.

Still, if you send me your address I can mail/send the <1M chunk of wire that came with my last mod. It might be interesting to see how the Dicodes (and others) operate with wire that has a decent TCR value.

g.

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

I really do want to test the pico with and wihtout arctic fox

Which Pico?
And I assume you live in AU?

 

[AussieGeek]

Wow, just wow. A quick surf turns up the Dicodes wire costing $22 a 10M spool here in the states.

Still, if you send me your address I can mail/send the <1M chunk of wire that came with my last mod. It might be interesting to see how the Dicodes (and others) operate with wire that has a decent TCR value.

g.

I would be sincerely grateful! I will try to work out how to privately send you my address. If you like, since you are being generous, you could even coil the wire how you normally vape, and I can do tests exactly for how you coil. Please note that I generally only test spaced coils to avoid issues with TC that can arise with hotspots and uneven coil heating, but whatever you like for this one.

I will have to re-program a bunch of the analysis tools back-end for resistherm, but should be quite do-able.

 

[AussieGeek]

Which Pico?
And I assume you live in AU?

I think the most popular one is the 75W single 18650 one? Would be good to get results that are most widely useful. Thats the model I have here but its so dodgy with the coil resistance reading, it doesnt read the same as the actual resistance as read by the rig and other more expensive mods...but that might be because mine is pretty old now and has been passed around quite a bit. Maybe check yours if you can?
Yes I live in Sydney Australia. I have had a dig around and although I have picked up a couple in the past for about 15 bucks, the cheapest I can find is about 50 bucks at the moment. Will keep looking.

 

[GeorgeS]

I would be sincerely grateful! I will try to work out how to privately send you my address. If you like, since you are being generous, you could even coil the wire how you normally vape, and I can do tests exactly for how you coil. Please note that I generally only test spaced coils to avoid issues with TC that can arise with hotspots and uneven coil heating, but whatever you like for this one.

I will have to re-program a bunch of the analysis tools back-end for resistherm, but should be quite do-able.

Here's an image of the packet of wire that I normally get with my Dicodes mods:

it would fit in a simple envelope.

I don't know the postage for a letter from Oregon, USA to where you are (EDIT: just looked it up, it will cost a whole whooping $1.20) but it can't be more than a few buck$. (its just some wire wrapped around a card in a ziplock baggie, note that it was a FREE sample so it did not cost me anything)

I usually do 6-8 spaced wraps with 2.5-3MM ID (sometimes 10, depends on the deck I'm building it for). Like you mentioned if the coils are spaced there won't be any hotspots to worry about and the coil should just heat from the center on out to the edges.

Once you have the coil, then there's the settings on the MOD itself. For Dicodes mods they have a menu selection for THEIR wire. Just select that and your mostly done.

I mention 'mostly' because that while I'd agree with you that with true temperature regulation you should be able to simply set the wattage to the mods maximum output and let the mod do all the work my experience with YiHi mods (in which you should not do that) and practice over the years is to use as little power as needed in hopes of extending battery life. While using less wattage than needed/required can lead to slow temperature ramp times, using to much can (in some cases) cause over shoot.

In the end it will be interesting to see how mods do with wire that has a decent TCR value and specifically how the Dicodes mod does with wire it is claimed to be 'optimized' for.

While I've never used it, I see I have a "inbox" at the top of the page.


g.

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

I think the most popular one is the 75W single 18650 one? Would be good to get results that are most widely useful. Thats the model I have here but its so dodgy with the coil resistance reading, it doesnt read the same as the actual resistance as read by the rig and other more expensive mods...but that might be because mine is pretty old now and has been passed around quite a bit. Maybe check yours if you can?
Yes I live in Sydney Australia. I have had a dig around and although I have picked up a couple in the past for about 15 bucks, the cheapest I can find is about 50 bucks at the moment. Will keep looking.

FT has it for just under $28 USD, the white one being the cheapest by pennies. Shipping should not be that much, if not free. Cigabuy had it for $24 but they sold out when someone posted about it in the forums lol. But with their shipping it would have ended up being probably more than FT.

And yes, I would say that all in all the Pico 75W is by far the most popular pico, with the Pico Squeeze 2 being the next most popular. There are people in this forum that hoard both of those mods.

 

[Mordacai]

Sure, its just NIFE30 with a TCR of 320.

While I have some I rarely use it as I opt for the higher TCR of NIFE52 in my builds.

BTW: Dicodes mods operate perfectly fine with NIFE52.


g.

That's what I mean exactly @GeorgeS, as each and every NiFe30 variant will have a different TCR.

So Dicodes in it's wisdom worked with another company to create Resistitherm with a stable TCR that is known and stable, just to improve TC further.

So they went from accuracy to precision, just by ensuring set standards with the wire used.

 

[AussieGeek]

Here's an image of the packet of wire that I normally get with my Dicodes mods:

it would fit in a simple envelope.

I don't know the postage for a letter from Oregon, USA to where you are (EDIT: just looked it up, it will cost a whole whooping $1.20) but it can't be more than a few buck$. (its just some wire wrapped around a card in a ziplock baggie, note that it was a FREE sample so it did not cost me anything)

I usually do 6-8 spaced wraps with 2.5-3MM ID (sometimes 10, depends on the deck I'm building it for). Like you mentioned if the coils are spaced there won't be any hotspots to worry about and the coil should just heat from the center on out to the edges.

Once you have the coil, then there's the settings on the MOD itself. For Dicodes mods they have a menu selection for THEIR wire. Just select that and your mostly done.

I mention 'mostly' because that while I'd agree with you that with true temperature regulation you should be able to simply set the wattage to the mods maximum output and let the mod do all the work my experience with YiHi mods (in which you should not do that) and practice over the years is to use as little power as needed in hopes of extending battery life. While using less wattage than needed/required can lead to slow temperature ramp times, using to much can (in some cases) cause over shoot.

In the end it will be interesting to see how mods do with wire that has a decent TCR value and specifically how the Dicodes mod does with wire it is claimed to be 'optimized' for.

While I've never used it, I see I have a "inbox" at the top of the page.


g.

I am excited, thank you for your kindness and curiosity.
For all my tests I set the mods way over power, and I only give them a solid pass if they can cope with that. You are right for YiHi devices that results in temperature over-shoots because they only alter pulse width, not power input. Its so momentary the cotton never burns though. Dicodes, the outcome is not so good as on the YiHis, and yes it performs better as a temperature ceiling limiter using more conservative power and just pulling back if you overheat, basically power mode with dry hit pritection, not a good true temperature controller on SS mode. Many other modern mods have no problem with this arrangement, including some $50 ones (Aegis Solo, Smok Mag with corrected TCR). As you say, this ensures you get to temp quickly, but comes at a battery longevity cost. Not sure if you have a chance to look at the full set of results for YiHi, DiCoDes, DNA and Aegis, but you may find some things of interest there.
I cant work out how to private message you here, do you use Reddit? Maybe PM me there, and Ill PM you my address back: AussieGeekVaper (u/AussieGeekVaper) - Reddit
Thanks again!

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

I cant work out how to private message you here

If you want to message a user, just click on their name then click "start a conversation". All conversations are in your "Inbox", which the link to is at the upper right of the site (on the desktop version).

When you get a reply you will get an alert.

 

[AussieGeek]

If you want to message a user, just click on their name then click "start a conversation". All conversations are in your "Inbox", which the link to is at the upper right of the site (on the desktop version).

When you get a reply you will get an alert.

Champ thanks, the deed is done! Hopefully I can put some tests up on DiCoDes on Resistherm before Christmas depending on USA postage chaos hehe. Thanks all for your interest and contributions.