Appleton e-cig possible indoor smoking e-cig ban

[blkeyedszn]

I don't post in here often, but thought that I'd post this since I was discussing e-cigs with a friend who said he received an email from his work saying they were not allowed to be used indoors anywhere in Appleton, according to the smoking ban.

I asked him if he could send me the email and he did. I am copying it here:

Everyone,

The following is the interpretation of Appleton's city attorney regarding
the smoking ban and how it pertains to electric cigarettes. Interesting;
I actually thought they might be allowed.
_____

From: Michelle Roberts [mailto:Michelle.Roberts@appleton.org]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:32 PM
To: XXXXX
Subject: ARTICLE IV. SMOKE FREE INDOOR AIR

I spoke to the Health Officer and our Assistant City Attorney regarding
the electric cigarette devices. The health officer stated he has had
other calls with this same question.

______________


They are considered combustible, since a battery heats up the nicotine.
Therefore, they are not allowed per the smoking ordinance.

I have copied the section from the ordinance below. I have attached the
entire ordnance below. Questions, please call.

tobacco product means a combustible cigarette, cigar,
weed, plant or other combustible substance prepared in such a
manner that it is suitable for smoking. This section shall not
include smoke-free tobacco products.

Use tobacco products means to consume by burning,
inhaling, exhaling or carrying a lighted cigarette, cigar, pipe,
weed, plant, or any other combustible substance in any
manner in any form.

Michelle Roberts, R.S.
Public Health Inspector
City of Appleton Health Dept.
phone 920-832-6431 (direct)
fax 920-832-5853



I don't know what to do about this since they aren't combustable in any way, shape or form! There is no combustion! I am at a loss as how to fight this. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

 

[blkeyedszn]

Excuse the really bad title. I read it after posting and can't change it.

 

[thomas_mikel]

Water and propylene glycol aren't combustible. Looks like somebody needs to go back to school (Michelle Roberts). Combustible, means burning not steaming or heating up. Are they going to outlaw steaming cups of coffee as well?

 

[C-kool Dad '09]

Water and propylene glycol aren't combustible. Looks like somebody needs to go back to school (Michelle Roberts). Combustible, means burning not steaming or heating up. Are they going to outlaw steaming cups of coffee as well?

Is that YOU - P.E.N.I.S. GUY? (as seen on TV)

 

[kristin]

Thanks for bringing this to our attention! THIS is exactly why CASAA needs Regional Reps in EVERY community! I live in Wisconsin and had no idea!!

The CASAA board meeting is tonight - I'll talk to them and we'll get a letter out to them ASAP!

 

[blkeyedszn]

Thank you! I had no idea what to do with this information, but I knew someone here would have an idea. You guys are the best!

 

[kristin]

As an aside, Websters describes "combustable" as "capable of combustion."

Combustion is defined as:
: an act or instance of burning
2: a usually rapid chemical process (as oxidation) that produces heat and usually light; also : a slower oxidation (as in the body)

Maybe they think #2 covers it, but you can't claim every chemical process is combustion. If the use of a battery is considered combustion, then people can't use their cell phones indoor, either!

The definition also says "burning" and nothing in e-cigarettes is burning. There is a difference between heating something up and burning it.

We'd have to see the definition of "cigarette," since an e-cigarette doesn't usually fit the legal definition of tobacco leaves in paper. Just because it's called a cigarette, doesn't make it a legal cigarette. If that were true, there wouldn't be a case in federal court right now over whether or not e-cigarettes are a tobacco product or drug delivery device!

 

[Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah]

Well, this will get the ball rolling - I've sent an opening email to Michelle. Let's see if I get any response. I will copy it out and send it via snail mail and fax tomorrow from work.

Allow me to introduce myself. I am XXX XXXXXXX, and am a consumer of these products for the last year and a half. I noted recently that you consider electronic cigarettes a 'combustible' product, and are including them in the indoor smoking bans. I would like to give you some information that I will hope will let you reconsider your position.

Electronic cigarettes use vaporization, not combustion, to produce the nicotine/propylene glycol mist that the user then inhales and exhales. There is no combustion, as nothing is set on fire and burned to produce smoke. There is no smoke in an electronic cigarette. The technology used is the same technology used in commercial smoke machines, medical nebulizer equipment, and home-vaporizers for adding moisture in dry air. Would you in turn ban these products as well in your zeal to eliminate anything that simply 'looks' like smoking?

in October of 2008, Health New Zealand conducted a detailed quantitative analysis and concluded that carcinogens and toxicants are present only below harmful levels. On the basis of the findings, the e-cigarette was rated several orders of magnitude (100 to 1000 times) less dangerous than smoking tobacco cigarettes. The nicotine dose is comparable to that of a medicinal nicotine inhaler. Overall, the product tested was deemed a "safe alternative to smoking." The Ruyan® (nicotine) E-Cigarette


This product also has the attention of the American Association of Public Health Physicians, and they have urged the FDA to retract their damaging press release of last year, as it continues to impress the public with false information regarding these products. http://www.aaphp.org/special/2009/20090829LtrDeyton.pdf


The electronic cigarette has the potential to solve the war against smoking by giving committed, nicotine-dependent smokers an alternative product that removes the bulk of the harm caused by lighting a carbon-based substance on fire and inhaling the by-products into ones lungs. A product that is acceptable to an overwhelming majority of the users.

If you truly want to change the behavior of committed smokers, you should be embracing, even encouraging this, and other harm-reduction products over smoking tobacco by allowing harm reduction products to be used in places smoking has been removed from. Once smokers see they can use alternative products in places they can't smoke, they will convert of their own free will. We can have a smoke-free society if we allow those who are nicotine-dependent to use their alternate products freely, without persecution or social stigmatization.

I urge you to reconsider your including electronic cigarettes in the smoking bans. If you desire more information, please visit CASAA | The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-Free Alternatives Association, a consumer-run website committed to harm-reduction products for traditional tobacco cigarettes.

Thank you for your time

 

[kristin]

I'm checking the municipal code now:

Tobacco product means a combustible cigarette, cigar,
weed, plant or other combustible substance prepared in such a
manner that it is suitable for smoking. This section shall not
include smoke-free tobacco products.

E-cigarettes are smokeless.

Use tobacco products means to consume by burning,
inhaling, exhaling or carrying a lighted cigarette, cigar, pipe,
weed, plant, or any other combustible substance in any
manner in any form.

E-cigarettes do not meet the definition of "tobacco product" under the ordinance.

Smoking means to smoke or carry a lighted pipe, cigar,
cigarette or tobacco-related products in any form.

If they decide "lighted" means the LED on the tip of an ecig, then they can't enforce it on my H16 - there is no light. But lighted is really intended to mean "burning."

This is nearly identical to what happened in Virginia - the health department making thier own arbitrary interpretation of the law. One of our members took it to her representative, who asked the AG for a legal ruling. He ruled that e-cigarettes weren't smoke.

Scottbee also posted that the Wisconsin Lieutenant Governor emailed a friend of his and said:

You are correct in your assumption that the smoking ban will not apply to electronic cigarettes. In order for the smoking ban to apply, the smoking product must contain tobacco.

For your reference, here is the statutory definition of smoking (from Wis 101.123(1)(h) (intro.)):

"Smoking" means burning or holding, or inhaling or exhaling smoke from, any of the following items containing tobacco:

1. A lighted cigar.
2. A lighted cigarette.
3. A lighted pipe.
4. Any other lighted smoking equipment.

Please let me know if you have further questions.

Truly yours,

Barbara Lawton
Lieutenant Governor

Of course, municipal smoking laws are allowed to be more strict than state laws in many cases. but changing the definition of a law to fit what you WANT it to mean shouldn't be allowed.

 

[thomas_mikel]

Is that YOU - P.E.N.I.S. GUY? (as seen on TV)

Indeed, tis I.

 

[thomas_mikel]

Thank you! I had no idea what to do with this information, but I knew someone here would have an idea. You guys are the best!

Kristin and Vicks are awesome when it comes to getting the word out.

 

[blkeyedszn]

I actually ran into a guy at a bar months back that said someone from the health department here in Appleton stopped him from vaping in a bar he worked at. Gave him a card and sited the "combustable" product line. I wish I had got his info, but he said he was on ECF so maybe he'll see this. Anyway, I was talking to him before the statewide ban went into place, since we've had a smoking ban here in Appleton for a while now.

I am still going to vape at will in any bar that gives me permission and if someone wants to stop ME, well then now I am armed with information thanks to you.

I am terrible (really awful) at letter writing. What else can I do to help? This is in my freaking town and it ticks me off. They are such anti-smoking nazi's here you would believe it. When the smoking ban went into place here a few years ago, many bars went out of business because patrons could drive 5 minutes further down the road and smoke and drink in another town. It was really a sad thing to see.

Now that there is this amazing alternative, I have talked with so many people by vaping openly in bars. I always carry business cards from all sorts of vendors with me and hand them out when people show interest. I probably have this happen at least once every time I go out. I love talking to people about this device that changed my life, they can't take this from me!

 

[C-kool Dad '09]

Why was I so STUPID to think that the new State Ban on smoking and the LEGAL definition of smoking by a Representative of the State of Wisconsin would actually ALLOW E-Cigs in a place like Appleton?

 

[Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah]

Why was I so STUPID to think that the new State Ban on smoking and the LEGAL definition of smoking by a Representative of the State of Wisconsin would actually ALLOW E-Cigs in a place like Appleton?

Because smokers have taken stronger and more stringent regulation and restriction with their bellies up for so long, they think the same tactics will work on PV's. They'll learn better - we ain't going belly up for 'em.

 

[kristin]

I actually ran into a guy at a bar months back that said someone from the health department here in Appleton stopped him from vaping in a bar he worked at. Gave him a card and sited the "combustable" product line. I wish I had got his info, but he said he was on ECF so maybe he'll see this. Anyway, I was talking to him before the statewide ban went into place, since we've had a smoking ban here in Appleton for a while now.

I am still going to vape at will in any bar that gives me permission and if someone wants to stop ME, well then now I am armed with information thanks to you.

I am terrible (really awful) at letter writing. What else can I do to help? This is in my freaking town and it ticks me off. They are such anti-smoking nazi's here you would believe it. When the smoking ban went into place here a few years ago, many bars went out of business because patrons could drive 5 minutes further down the road and smoke and drink in another town. It was really a sad thing to see.

Now that there is this amazing alternative, I have talked with so many people by vaping openly in bars. I always carry business cards from all sorts of vendors with me and hand them out when people show interest. I probably have this happen at least once every time I go out. I love talking to people about this device that changed my life, they can't take this from me!

I talked to the CASAA board and I'm going to put together a very strong letter, Then the two attorneys on the board are going to review it and make it even better.

You'd be a great help if you'd work with me and also put your name on the letter, since I'm not in Appleton. I'll PM you in the next few days, if that's ok?

 

[blkeyedszn]

That sounds wonderful. Please feel free to PM me to go over the details. Thank you so very much to all of you at CASAA.

 

[harmony gardens]

This really surprises me. My sister lives in Appleton (a non smoker or vaper, but very sympathetic to our cause) and she had seen some news reports a while back that had said vaping in bars wasn't covered by the ban. She's told me that she has seen people vaping. This must be something fairly new.

That FDA "study" strikes again.

 

[Vocalek]

This really surprises me. My sister lives in Appleton (a non smoker or vaper, but very sympathetic to our cause) and she had seen some news reports a while back that had said vaping in bars wasn't covered by the ban. She's told me that she has seen people vaping. This must be something fairly new.

That FDA "study" strikes again.

The FDA Said E-Cigarettes Contain Carcinogens

• A one-day supply of e-cigarette liquid contains 8 nanograms of nitrosamines.
• A one-day supply of Nicorette gum (4 mg, 10 pieces) contains 20 nanograms.
• A one day supply of Marlboros (1 pack) contains 126,000 nanograms.

The FDA Said E-Cigarettes Contain Antifreeze

• Diethylene Glycol is a chemical added to keep tobacco moist.
• The trace amount found in one cartridge was well below toxic levels.
• The FDA did not issue a recall of the product brand.

SUMMARY: The FDA did not find toxic or carcinogenic amounts of chemicals in e-cigarette liquid.

What about the vapor?

FDA Final Report "Evaluation of e-cigarettes" http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/ScienceResearch/UCM173250.pdf
“Nicotine was detected in both products for all cartridges containing low, medium and high levels of nicotine but was not observed in cartridges identified as containing no nicotine. Screening for the possible tobacco specific impurities cotinine, nicotine-N-oxide, nornicotine, anabasine and myosmine was negative. β-Nicotyrine was detected in all Njoy cartridges but was not detected in the Smoking Everywhere cartridges.”

Technical Review and Analysis of FDA Report: "Evaluation of e-cigarettes", Exponent Health Sciences
http://www.casaa.org/files/Exponent Response-to-the-FDA-Summary.pdf
“β-nicotyrine and cotinine were the only tobacco impurities (other than nicotine) detected in NJOY cartridges by both of the vapor analyses. Information in the available scientific literature regarding these two compounds indicates that neither have been found to be carcinogenic or particularly toxic by standard [Ames] tests.”