argon?

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robvanhooren

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any thoughts on using argon gas in the headroom space of bottles, especially for stock that's steeping?

something like this and some lessons learned from the wine world.

more benefit with glass containment, of course ... but can perhaps be useful to a point with LDPE too.

cheap insurance?

curious to know what folks think of the pros/cons.

cheers,

R.
 

built4feel

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...is it worth the trouble? I dont think...
If you mean for personal use, I really don't think a tiny bit of O2 can do much in a year or twos time...

If the bottle isn't filled the whole way, that might be a different story... and in that case, why would the bottle have much headroom? Just fill it up to the top or vape it...
Also, if you wanna store it for a really long time (2+ years), I'd say just make sure they're almost completely full and pop em in the freezer...
... of knock your socks off and start a juice cellar! ;)
 

Soignee

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Dude,

In eliquid we are not dealing with volatile esters, flavanoids, polyphenols and the like that will evaporate as they will in an alcohol based product. Yes wine will oxidize when not "blanketed" by Argon, Nitrogen or any other inert gas, but no one, I repeat NO ONE is going to leave a '98 Chateauneuf du Pape half finished. You will savor the last drops of that fine wine that night . Wine blankets are a scam for wine snob wanna be's. Sorry, I'm not bashing you. The whole premise is just not applicable. Not with wine and not with eliquid. The oxidation rate in eliquid is so slow that you will have finished your bottle months before any appreciable degradation would have occurred.

Even steeping a Nicoticket CLS for 3 months will show NO appreciable level of nic degradation if stored in a relatively cool place. I believe you can ask anyone within the NT forum whether their juices lose flavor or gain flavor over a 3 month time frame and they will say the flavor is better and nothing but time has been lost!

I'm not a chemist nor do I play one on tv...I am a Chef and have dealt with wine in high end restaurants for nearly 30 years. I remember when (god I sound old) wine blankets were first introduced, they were a scam then and they still are. Frankly I'm shocked they are still around, but then people will buy anything.

In 2001, Frederic Brochet conducted two experiments at the University of Bordeaux.

In one experiment, he got 54 oenology (the study of wine tasting and wine making) undergraduates together and had them taste one glass of red wine and one glass of white wine. He had them describe each wine in as much detail as their expertise would allow. What he didn't tell them was both were the same wine. He just dyed the white one red. In the other experiment, he asked the experts to rate two different bottles of red wine. One was very expensive, the other was cheap. Again, he tricked them. This time he had put the cheap wine in both bottles. So what were the results?

The tasters in the first experiment, the one with the dyed wine, described the sorts of berries and grapes and tannins they could detect in the red wine just as if it really was red. Every single one, all 54, could not tell it was white. In the second experiment, the one with the switched labels, the subjects went on and on about the cheap wine in the expensive bottle. They called it complex and rounded. They called the same wine in the cheap bottle weak and flat.


These were students of wine that got scammed in a psych experiment...the average Joe in a restaurant or your flat can't tell if the wine they are drinking has been freshly opened or was left over from the night before.

Sorry, the post just got my hackles up for some reason and I'll get off my soapbox now...flame away if needed!

:toast:
 

Megan Kogijiki Ratchford

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The only time I have heard of it being used is when DIY folks buy 50 liters of 100mg nic and then decant to glass bottles, top with argon, and put them in their freezer. They don't use it on top of the made juices just the nicotine they are stashing for long into the future....

And Soignee that is a fantastic study! I'm further hampered by not liking wine much as it all seems like such a shell game...
 

robvanhooren

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Do you mean at the point of manufacture, or something a vaper could do once they put a bottle back in storage?

either. obviously the aftermarket argon wine gear is available to the end user.

however, if scaling up I understand that nitrogen is more economical when generating at point of manufacture ... fridge-sized unit just pulls nitrogen out of (purified) air and lays down at finishing prior to capping and sealing. no hazmat hassle, tank rental, or multi-year lease agreements.

For example,

http://mesaequipment.com/2014/07/three-ways-winemakers-benefit-from-onsite-nitrogen-gas-generators/

or

http://www.nitrogen-generators.com/bottling-wineries/

Also, Parker also has a case study. Might be worth reading. Can't hurt.

consider asking your bottling partner, maybe they can reference options to trial or integrate an appropriately-sized unit.

PS: check PM re: Germany.
 
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robvanhooren

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thanks Soignee!

it was just a thought that crossed my mind, even where PG is to some extent antimicrobial.

I appreciate your detailed and thoughtful post.

though I wonder if there would be any measurable chemistry to it (vs. anecdotal a la Brochet).

it might add some uniqueness in the market (or stave off vapocalypse a bit longer than 1-2 years' storage)

e.g. "vintage" Virus, 'nilla, or ACB, anyone?

"ahhhh yes dahling ... 2014 was a very good year!"

who knows.

:)
 

Mikeo

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I sure my palette is not sophisticated enough to notice any difference, but I do appreciate the original question and Soignee in depth reply.
Years ago, when I was a wine connoisseur, this was my wine of choice::)

c30d8d48f99842303de23d52c3a9e140.jpg
 

Kent Brooks

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...is it worth the trouble? I dont think...
If you mean for personal use, I really don't think a tiny bit of O2 can do much in a year or twos time...

If the bottle isn't filled the whole way, that might be a different story... and in that case, why would the bottle have much headroom? Just fill it up to the top or vape it...
Also, if you wanna store it for a really long time (2+ years), I'd say just make sure they're almost completely full and pop em in the freezer...
... of knock your socks off and start a juice cellar! ;)

Definitely do not freeze finished liquid ;)
 

Kent Brooks

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Dude,

In eliquid we are not dealing with volatile esters, flavanoids, polyphenols and the like that will evaporate as they will in an alcohol based product. Yes wine will oxidize when not "blanketed" by Argon, Nitrogen or any other inert gas, but no one, I repeat NO ONE is going to leave a '98 Chateauneuf du Pape half finished. You will savor the last drops of that fine wine that night . Wine blankets are a scam for wine snob wanna be's. Sorry, I'm not bashing you. The whole premise is just not applicable. Not with wine and not with eliquid. The oxidation rate in eliquid is so slow that you will have finished your bottle months before any appreciable degradation would have occurred.

Even steeping a Nicoticket CLS for 3 months will show NO appreciable level of nic degradation if stored in a relatively cool place. I believe you can ask anyone within the NT forum whether their juices lose flavor or gain flavor over a 3 month time frame and they will say the flavor is better and nothing but time has been lost!

I'm not a chemist nor do I play one on tv...I am a Chef and have dealt with wine in high end restaurants for nearly 30 years. I remember when (god I sound old) wine blankets were first introduced, they were a scam then and they still are. Frankly I'm shocked they are still around, but then people will buy anything.

In 2001, Frederic Brochet conducted two experiments at the University of Bordeaux.

In one experiment, he got 54 oenology (the study of wine tasting and wine making) undergraduates together and had them taste one glass of red wine and one glass of white wine. He had them describe each wine in as much detail as their expertise would allow. What he didn't tell them was both were the same wine. He just dyed the white one red. In the other experiment, he asked the experts to rate two different bottles of red wine. One was very expensive, the other was cheap. Again, he tricked them. This time he had put the cheap wine in both bottles. So what were the results?

The tasters in the first experiment, the one with the dyed wine, described the sorts of berries and grapes and tannins they could detect in the red wine just as if it really was red. Every single one, all 54, could not tell it was white. In the second experiment, the one with the switched labels, the subjects went on and on about the cheap wine in the expensive bottle. They called it complex and rounded. They called the same wine in the cheap bottle weak and flat.


These were students of wine that got scammed in a psych experiment...the average Joe in a restaurant or your flat can't tell if the wine they are drinking has been freshly opened or was left over from the night before.

Sorry, the post just got my hackles up for some reason and I'll get off my soapbox now...flame away if needed!

:toast:

Taste is subjective ;)
 

Soignee

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either. obviously the aftermarket argon wine gear is available to the end user.

however, if scaling up I understand that nitrogen is more economical when generating at point of manufacture ... fridge-sized unit just pulls nitrogen out of (purified) air and lays down at finishing prior to capping and sealing. no hazmat hassle, tank rental, or multi-year lease agreements.

For example,

http://mesaequipment.com/2014/07/three-ways-winemakers-benefit-from-onsite-nitrogen-gas-generators/

or

Bottling (Wineries) - Nitrogen Generators, Nitrogen Gas Generation

Also, Parker also has a case study. Might be worth reading. Can't hurt.

consider asking your bottling partner, maybe they can reference options to trial or integrate an appropriately-sized unit.

PS: check PM re: Germany.

Hi Rob,

Good thread by the way! It really got me thinking! Sorry again for my long rant. Blankets for end users has always just irked me, it's like someone trying to sell an upgraded cleanser or the like.

On an industrial level however...particularly when vast quantities of product may sit dormant for many months in questionable environs may be a different story. Again, I'm not a chemist and there is little data on flavor molecule degradation that is readable by the average person but from what I've found heat is more of an enemy than oxygen, particularly to the extract of vanilla. I have played with extracts of vanilla, culinary herbs (don't wanna piss the mods off), spices and the like professionally and found that heat is bad for any of them.

It would be interesting to know how flavor molecules bond on a molecular level within eliquid. Does it occur with or without oxygen? How much oxygen is dissolved within the base carriers? At what temperature does any particular flavor molecule begin to break down? What is the life span of any particular flavor molecule trapped within the base carriers? Perhaps one of the chemists on the board could help with this can of worms?

I'm not certain that the cost to benefit ratio is there. 5-20 thousand dollars has to be passed to the consumer...

I then ask myself the question, how cured (read steeped) is NT going to sell their product? Will the mass consumer be willing to sit on a bottle that needs to be cured for 30-60 days? Will there be different cure levels sold? Would that cure level drive price? Consumers tend to be sheeple. "Man that CLS is awesome, you gotta try it!". True statement, but person A cured their bottle for 40 days and 40 nights. Person B goes to their local B&M ('cause they can now) and picks up a fresh bottle and fires it up. "Ack, blows snot, tastes like alcohol! Throws bottle down". There are tons of Custard threads in the Gen Eliq Forum that recommend NT to inquiring minds many I've participated in, and it's rare that anyone says "you have to steep it!" I believe that gets left to the individual to do their due diligence on the NT website.

So inert gas does play a role, dependent on a huge number of factors.

Being a business person I really hope NT gets to that level of sales! Heck Kent, I'll come work for you to sell your product! I'm tired of Food and Beverage anyhow!

Thanks for giving me hours of endless Google research to do now Rob! Cycling season is over and I'm burned out on my lesser hobbies...

:toast:
 

robvanhooren

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Hi Rob,

[...] It would be interesting to know how flavor molecules bond on a molecular level within eliquid. Does it occur with or without oxygen? How much oxygen is dissolved within the base carriers? At what temperature does any particular flavor molecule begin to break down? What is the life span of any particular flavor molecule trapped within the base carriers? Perhaps one of the chemists on the board could help with this can of worms?

Thanks for giving me hours of endless Google research to do now Rob! Cycling season is over and I'm burned out on my lesser hobbies...

:toast:


at the risk of going off-topic, I wonder what Harold, Nathan, or Heston would have to say.

... does Hervé vape?

sous-vide steeping anyone? [ack!] 8-o

you Google, I'll check my beat-up, dog-eared dead trees.

you'll likely be faster.

cheers,

R.
 
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Soignee

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at the risk of going off-topic, I wonder what Harold, Nathan, or Heston would have to say.

... does Hervé vape?

sous-vide steeping anyone? [ack!] 8-o

you Google, I'll check my beat-up, dog-eared dead trees.

you'll likely be faster.

cheers,

R.

Not to resurrect a dead thread (could I get a set list please?).

But I did threaten to research and start a thread over in DIY...well of course I did. Here is the start of it. Interesting read and Khymos knows their stuff, should've started there sooner...

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-some-funky-ideas-about-flavor-how-works.html

Nothing else to see here folks, just click the link and go about your business...
 
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