Batteries wont charge? possible to overdrain them to a point of no return?

[gjohny]

Hello again, i ordered a Vamo v2 and it came with 2 of these ICR18350 18350 3.7V "900mAh" Rechargeable Lithium Battery: FastTech Forums

The batteries wont charge in my nitecore i4 charger, it gives me 3 blinking yellow flashing lights

(Below 0.74 volt the charger will report error (all 3 yellow leds are flashing)

I went to bed the other night and left them in my vamo without turning it off. I read somewhere that someone said vamo will keep drawing power even if its not in use. i know absolutely nothing about batteries and i was wondering if its possible the vamo drained all the batteries juice to a point where it cant be charged again?

 

[Bigflyrodder]

Not with the Vamo, that shouldn't be possible. You will get a "Low V" message on the screen and eventually it will shut off. I guess anything can happen but I'd be shocked if that was the cause.

That being said, it is possible to overdrain a battery so that a cheap charger won't recharge it. Bigger worry is that you can overdrain a battery and it can go very wrong from there...battery damage is no joke. Do you a decent charger like the Intellicharger or using one that came with a kit?

 

[Bigflyrodder]

Turn the battery around in the charger, positive towards the top and I bet they charge.

 

[MasteroftheVape]

Your answer is yes... and no. Lith Ion batteries are best to be charged when they get to around 50% for longevity purposes, but it is possible to bring the back if you have a charger that supports a "trickle" charge function like Amazon.com : Nitecore Sysmax I4 Intellicharge i4 version 2 Four Bays universal battery charger, Two Nitecore RCR123 NL166 650mAH rechargeable batteries with Smith & Wesson Carabeamer LED Clip Light : General Use Batteries : Electronics.
Check out How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University for more info on charge cycles for batt cells.
Summary, you might be able to breath some life back into the cell with a trickle charge, but the battery will never be good as new again.

 

[Mohamed]

Not with the Vamo, that shouldn't be possible. You will get a "Low V" message on the screen and eventually it will shut off. I guess anything can happen but I'd be shocked if that was the cause.

That being said, it is possible to overdrain a battery so that a cheap charger won't recharge it. Bigger worry is that you can overdrain a battery and it can go very wrong from there...battery damage is no joke. Do you a decent charger like the Intellicharger or using one that came with a kit?

You're right Vamo stops at 3.2. I think you can vape for a little bit at 3.2 but pretty soon it says Low V and shuts off. Now if you leave them in at 3.2 while it's on for a day I'm not sure if it shuts off automatically or if it takes a button press to determine that and cause it to shut off...not sure? These kind of batteries don't have "memory" issues but you still shouldn't drain them too low and your vamo should prevent you from doing that.

As for the OP's charger he said it was a nightcore i4 which is pretty reputable charger from what I hear around here on the forums. I have an i2 which means I can only charge two at the same time.

As for BigFlyrodder's comment that's also a good chance make sure you got them with positive at top and negative at bottom. If you have a normal battery positive is the end with the protruding end. The negative is the flat end. If you have a flat top battery it should have a circle ring at the top that is positive. In almost all cases at least with batteries I have the have a + and - on the wrapper of the battery.

If you put it in backwards the Nightcore will prevent it from charging and also give you those lights. Check that first. It doesn't sound like your charger at the moment.

 

[Mohamed]

Your answer is yes... and no. Lith Ion batteries are best to be charged when they get to around 50% for longevity purposes, but it is possible to bring the back if you have a charger that supports a "trickle" charge function like Amazon.com : Nitecore Sysmax I4 Intellicharge i4 version 2 Four Bays universal battery charger, Two Nitecore RCR123 NL166 650mAH rechargeable batteries with Smith & Wesson Carabeamer LED Clip Light : General Use Batteries : Electronics.
Check out How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University for more info on charge cycles for batt cells.
Summary, you might be able to breath some life back into the cell with a trickle charge, but the battery will never be good as new again.

Again OP said he has a Nitecore I4 so charger shouldn't be the issue...especially if it's brand new...but weirder things have happened.

 

[Bigflyrodder]

Good point about the fact that maybe the safety shut off won't kick in without a button push, hadn't thought of that.

 

[Mohamed]

Good point about the fact that maybe the safety shut off won't kick in without a button push, hadn't thought of that.

I guess I have 6 spare batteries and if they get around 3.6-3.5 I usually take them out and wait until I need to charge so I have never left it in around 3.2 overnight or even for a day. I occasionally get the LOW V warning at 3.2 but I always have a spare battery handy and just change it out right away.

It also looks like batteries are unprotected...which was my second guess that the they were protected batteries and the fuse/strip on the side blew...but that's not the case since I just checked your battery link and they are unprotected which is fine and what you should be using in a vamo.

 

[gjohny]

Update:

So i was messing around with the batteries, putting them into the vamo one at a time in shorty mode and trying to turn it on. then i put the batteries back on the charger, one of them is now charging! I let it charge for a bit and tested it, its working again. The other one is still giving 3 flashing yellow lights thou.

If i put both batteries in (i was hoping the charged one would run through the bad one and restore it haha), the vamo turns on but it wont hit, says "LO v"

 

[Mohamed]

Were you by chance stacking the batteries? There really is no need to stack the batteries with a vamo. Get an 18650 if you want to use the longer version. When stacking you have to be careful to rotate them each charge. Mark one A and one B. If you use AB then next time use BA and then next time AB and so on. In all honesty I wouldn't risk stacking. From my understanding in the "Olden days" which really was only a few years ago...the reason for stacking was that vv and vw devices weren't out. It was a way to increase the voltage to a given ohm. Now days there really is no reason to stack batteries and you are just increasing your risk of getting something wrong.

Also the batteries you linked are flat on both ends. So unless you are really paying attention each time you may accidentally put one in + - and the other one in - +...which is a big no no and that will drain your batteries completely. If you did that they should have gotten extremely hot and surprised if they wouldn't catch fire if you did that.

Anyone curious if you were stacking these 18350's in the vamo...only reason I thought of that was that you said you put it into short mode and now one is working.

EDIT: even though those batteries are flat on each end the positive end is still slightly protruded and should have several vent holes around it. Also check the label on the outside of the battery it should say + on one end and - on the other.

EDIT 2: The vamo also won't let you start it up if you have the battery in backwards.

 

[InTheShade]

I wonder if in stacking them the vamo won't activate the low voltage cutoff. If you stack them, you should be recharging around 6.5 volts or so. That I know, the Vamo low voltage kicks in at 3.2v so you may have taken them beyond where your charger will recharge them. This is a guess, so if anyone knows for sure, I am prepared to be corrected.

Some higher end chargers will be able to resurrect over-discharged batteries, but I don't think the i4 can.

As Mohamed said, just get an 18650 battery if you want to use it in 18650 mode.

 

[gjohny]

Were you by chance stacking the batteries? There really is no need to stack the batteries with a vamo. Get an 18650 if you want to use the longer version. When stacking you have to be careful to rotate them each charge. Mark one A and one B. If you use AB then next time use BA and then next time AB and so on. In all honesty I wouldn't risk stacking. From my understanding in the "Olden days" which really was only a few years ago...the reason for stacking was that vv and vw devices weren't out. It was a way to increase the voltage to a given ohm. Now days there really is no reason to stack batteries and you are just increasing your risk of getting something wrong.

Also the batteries you linked are flat on both ends. So unless you are really paying attention each time you may accidentally put one in + - and the other one in - +...which is a big no no and that will drain your batteries completely. If you did that they should have gotten extremely hot and surprised if they wouldn't catch fire if you did that.

Anyone curious if you were stacking these 18350's in the vamo...only reason I thought of that was that you said you put it into short mode and now one is working.

EDIT: even though those batteries are flat on each end the positive end is still slightly protruded and should have several vent holes around it. Also check the label on the outside of the battery it should say + on one end and - on the other.

EDIT 2: The vamo also won't let you start it up if you have the battery in backwards.

lol i make sure to put the batteries in correctly each time because when i very first got the vamo i did put them in backwards and pressed the button 5 times to turn it on. ALOT of smoke came out from under the buttons/screen area, i was like oooh !@$!%, and took the batteries out really fast. i dont know what kind of damage it did but it still works fine. Smoking it atm with my one good 18350 lol. i think it just melted the plastic backing thing that holds the circuit board in place.

Yea i got a 18650 in the mail on it's way. I was stacking 18350's because that's what the vamo came with i hadn't done any research on battery's until mine messed up the other day, i wont be stacking them anymore.

 

[Mohamed]

I wonder if in stacking them the vamo won't activate the low voltage cutoff. If you stack them, you should be recharging around 6.5 volts or so. That I know, the Vamo low voltage kicks in at 3.2v so you may have taken them beyond where your charger will recharge them. This is a guess, so if anyone knows for sure, I am prepared to be corrected.

Some higher end chargers will be able to resurrect over-discharged batteries, but I don't think the i4 can.

As Mohamed said, just get an 18650 battery if you want to use it in 18650 mode.

Good point with the 6.5 when stacking...basically your putting the batteries in a series so the volts add up. 3.2-4.2 for each battery. 3.2 you should recharge...4.2 they should be fully charged. So if you had them stacked that would 6.4-8.4. Your vamo probably wasn't shutting off because it thought it had enough volts and you over drained your batteries.

Anyway those batteries weren't too expensive and no one got hurt and no fires got started. I'd go out and get 2 more 18350 batteries and 2 18650 batteries and just throw the ones you have away. Then just run it short mode or long mode...and never stack again It's probably not worth the risk. From what I know overcharging is the bigger issue (which shouldn't be a concern with the I4 but the electronic circuits can go bad in anything after time). But if you drain them too low and they don't snap out of it you can also maybe have some risk issues. I'll have to try and dig up what happens when you overdrain them. I read those somewhere on this site but don't think it's anywhere near as risky as overcharging.

For now just use one at a time in short mode until you get some more.

 

[Mohamed]

lol i make sure to put the batteries in correctly each time because when i very first got the vamo i did put them in backwards and pressed the button 5 times to turn it on. ALOT of smoke came out from under the buttons/screen area, i was like oooh !@$!%, and took the batteries out really fast. i dont know what kind of damage it did but it still works fine. Smoking it atm with my one good 18350 lol. i think it just melted the plastic backing thing that holds the circuit board in place.

Yea i got a 18650 in the mail on it's way. I was stacking 18350's because that's what the vamo came with i hadn't done any research on battery's until mine messed up the other day, i wont be stacking them anymore.

In all honesty you should probably warn the vendor to at least put warning about stacking if they are going to sell a vamo with 2 18350's. I saw the battery you mentioned was from FT. They no longer sell batteries by themsevles anymore. I got my vamo and NiteCore I2 charger in kit from there but it came with 2 18650 batteries. I bought my 18350's separately specifically for use in my gripper but my try the vamo in short mode.

 

[Mohamed]

lol i make sure to put the batteries in correctly each time because when i very first got the vamo i did put them in backwards and pressed the button 5 times to turn it on. ALOT of smoke came out from under the buttons/screen area, i was like oooh !@$!%, and took the batteries out really fast. i dont know what kind of damage it did but it still works fine. Smoking it atm with my one good 18350 lol. i think it just melted the plastic backing thing that holds the circuit board in place.

Yea i got a 18650 in the mail on it's way. I was stacking 18350's because that's what the vamo came with i hadn't done any research on battery's until mine messed up the other day, i wont be stacking them anymore.

The fire may have damaged your circuit board too? Next time you get down to 3.2 volts...hold the left button down to check battery voltage. See if it eventually gives you a LOW V warning. I don't think it gives you one right away at 3.2. I think when it gets close to 3.1 it will give you that warning. I've never seen my read 3.1. Lowest reading I've seen is 3.2 and eventually gives me that warning if I don't replace.

 

[gjohny]

ah i get that intheshade meant now, thanks for clarifying mohamed.

i bought this kit, ill let them know in the support ticket i have open atm for a replacement battery, maybe ill tell them the whole vamo went bad and i want a full replacement - http://www.fasttech.com/products/1411/10004394/1350600

it could have, i hope not. ill check when it gives lowv warning, atm it says 4.1v ... is that bad because those batteries have 3.7v 900Mah label on them

 

[Mohamed]

ah i get that intheshade meant now, thanks for clarifying mohamed.

i bought this kit, ill let them know - $51.08 Vamo V2 Variable Voltage Rechargeable E-Cigarette Starter Kit - 2*18350 / stainless steel / US plug at FastTech - Worldwide Free Shipping

it could have, i hope not. ill check when it gives lowv warning, atm it says 4.1v

Not sure what is meant by intheshade? Did I have a typo or something.

I buy from fasttech quite a bit myself. They are cheap and most of the time products are of ok quality. They sometimes sell irresponsible items like the one you linked. And FYI that charger is not a Nitecore I2 or a Nitecore I4. That is in the picture that you linked. I personally wouldn't trust that charger. You don't want to skimp out on batteries or charger as that's where most of the danger can come into play.

https://www.fasttech.com/products/1380305 That's the one I got. Notice the I2 has much more circuitry at the top of where the battery chargers. It will actually charge each battery individually in 3 phases and shut each one off as it reaches it's maximum voltage. With the one in the picture of your link I'd be careful to monitor them and remove them once the full charge comes on.

I don't monitor mine like I should but feel a bit safer with a higher quality charger like the I2. I4 is basically the same thing but allows 4 batteries to be charged at once...and I think they share power when you have all 4 in or something like that. Your original post said you an I4 but the picture in the link you gave doesn't indicate that.

 

[gjohny]

Not sure what is meant by intheshade? Did I have a typo or something.

I buy from fasttech quite a bit myself. They are cheap and most of the time products are of ok quality. They sometimes sell irresponsible items like the one you linked. And FYI that charger is not a Nitecore I2 or a Nitecore I4. That is in the picture that you linked. I personally wouldn't trust that charger. You don't want to skimp out on batteries or charger as that's where most of the danger can come into play.

https://www.fasttech.com/products/1380305 That's the one I got. Notice the I2 has much more circuitry at the top of where the battery chargers. It will actually charge each battery individually in 3 phases and shut each one off as it reaches it's maximum voltage. With the one in the picture of your link I'd be careful to monitor them and remove them once the full charge comes on.

I don't monitor mine like I should but feel a bit safer with a higher quality charger like the I2. I4 is basically the same thing but allows 4 batteries to be charged at once...and I think they share power when you have all 4 in or something like that. Your original post said you an I4 but the picture in the link you gave doesn't indicate that.

InTheShade is the poster above, i meant to type "i get what intheshade meant now, thanks for clarifying mohamed."

i bought a nitecore i4 from ebay after the batteries died on me.
i threw the one that came in that starter pack in the garbage.

i edit't my above post i dont think you saw it so ill put it here too.

it could have, i hope not. ill check when it gives lowv warning, atm it says 4.1v ... is that bad because those batteries have 3.7v 900Mah label on them

 

[Talyon]

Stacking in a Vamo has been working for me for a year now without any problems, I'm very careful as I know of possible problems, I mark them 1-1 2-2 3-3 etc and keep them paired I also alternate which goes on top.

From a recharge my Vamo reads them at 8.2, and well give a Lo V @ 6.7. I never turn my Vamo off, ever. I Vape 3-4 rigs routinely so NO the Vamo well not drain battery, however like most batteries they well lose power when just sitting around, ie on a shelf in a mod etc.

I change the batteries right after Lo V is reported but dont charge them for an hour after removing. Good to let them rest first. I use a charger bag around my Nitecore just in case, as well as any battery I charge.

I don't recommend stacking, but many do it as do I. I'll assume your an adult, so do as u please but take the above precautions.

Vape On, ohhhh buy new batteries if they don't charge. Don't play around with used ones.

 

[Mohamed]

it could have, i hope not. ill check when it gives lowv warning, atm it says 4.1v ... is that bad because those batteries have 3.7v 900Mah label on them

No check these out which again FT won't sell any more but are decent batteries. https://www.fasttech.com/products/0...-us18650v3-18650-3-7v-2150mah-rechargeable-li

The 3.7 is the Rated Batery Voltage. In all honesty I don't know what that means. It's probably where the battery runs best at. If you have every looked at voltage curve usually they start off high then level off and then start to make a steep drop. The one I linked is a max of 4.25 and min of 2.5 with a rating of 3.7. I have 2 of that brand btw. I think if you go below the 2.5 which you may have done when stacking is an issue and you never want to go below that. Again vamo should cut you off 3.2 if you aren't stacking. The 4.25 is maximum voltage it should be charged too. If you go over that it could explode or cause a fire. The vamo is only +- 0.1 accuracy. Mine have always read 4.1 coming off the charger.

Ohh FYI your supposed to let them rest an hour or so coming off the charger before using...another battery fact to throw out at you

If you have a multimeter I would expect that they would come off of the I4 at 4.20 +- 0.05? I'll be getting one of those in next couple of months. Anyway having a reading of 4.1 is normal. As said my Vamo has always given me a reading of 4.1 for fully charged batteries.

4.2-3.2 is what you are looking for for a single battery...3.7 is kind of the maximum performance voltage. I never stacked my 18350's but those should have given you a 8.2-8.4 reading? Again you shouldn't do that but curious what reading the vamo was giving

One more side note. When stacking the batteries are considered to be "married". Meaning if you are going to stack you should only use those two batteries and one should be on top and the other on the bottom one time...then the next time the one on the bottom goes on top and vice a versa. You can separate them but if you do they should only be used alone. They should also be charged together. But you never want to throw one of those batteries away and then throw in a new battery into one of the separated batteries.

I don't make this .... up just repeating what the battery experts around here have said. Has something to do with one becoming more polarized than the other. That's why you need to switch the AB, to BA, to AB, to BA, etc after each charge. If you throw a C into the mix the polarization is screwed up or something...PM baditude to explain this in scientific english. He's the expert around here. I should find you his blogs on batteries which I've yet to really study in full detail.