Battery danger - total newbie

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Fredljames

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Hi!!

Firstly super sorry for posting such a frequently posted about subject - I had a look at previous threads but unfortunately I just don't understand and I'm really hoping someone can dumb it down for me.

I have an Innokin Cool Fire 4 battery with an Atlantis nautilus Mini tank. I've had both since December 2015 and use them every day.

Please can someone provide info on battery safety, specifically warning signs? I'm basically super nervous about it exploding mid use. I have started keeping it in a carry case when not in use but previously would just throw it in my bag. The battery and tank get warm when they're used a lot (NOT too hot to touch) and occasionally I'll hear a quiet high pitched buzzing sound coming off the battery for a few seconds after using it (like when a charger buzzes). Are these reasons to worry?! What warning signs are there before a battery literally explodes?

Sorry again - I'm so unscientific and I wouldn't have posted a brand new thread if I could work out what everything meant.
 
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Fredljames

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I wouldn't worry too much. Inbuilt batteries are good for a long time, some of us have functioning MVPs from 2013. Most atomizers do get warm especially with higher power vaping. Little noises are a concern, I admit. One of my mods makes little noises, I'd just keep an eye on it. :)
Thank you! I'd assumed as much but thought I'd best check with people who actually know what they're talking about. It's a very quiet noise that I can only hear if I hold it to my ear and only lasts a few seconds - I'd thought nothing of it but then I read about them exploding in people's faces and naturally thought the worst!
 

Fredljames

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Never be sorry for posting something that is concerning you. Safety is something we all take very seriously and more than willing to help someone in need. :)
Ahh thanks - I've seen countless threads on here and didn't want people to think I was being an idiot (I am but that's not the point) posting it AGAIN without bothering to read others first - I just don't understand scientific stuff unless it's totally dumbed down! Science wasn't my forte at school...
 
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djsvapour

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Don't quote me but I think something like a coolfire would give you some notice if something was not right. Some mods have overheat protection and I've only had to take one battery (eGo) down the garden when something had clearly gone wrong. Nothing scary happened. The worst stories are with mech mods or overcharging inbuilt battery mods, leaving them overnight, that kind of stuff. Innokin are good at quality imo.
 

Fredljames

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Don't quote me but I think something like a coolfire would give you some notice if something was not right. Some mods have overheat protection and I've only had to take one battery (eGo) down the garden when something had clearly gone wrong. Nothing scary happened. The worst stories are with mech mods or overcharging inbuilt battery mods, leaving them overnight, that kind of stuff. Innokin are good at quality imo.
Thank you! From what I've read and understood elsewhere it seems that the rebuilt mods are the ones that are more likely to have issues - is that right? What kind of warning signs are there that something is wrong and dangerous with the battery - is it just overheating or are there other things to watch out for?
 

Susan~S

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Thank you! From what I've read and understood elsewhere it seems that the rebuilt mods are the ones that are more likely to have issues - is that right?
Most of the devises that have batteries exploding/venting are unregulated/mechanical mods. Either the user is:
  • using tanks on a direct-2-battery unregulated/mechanical mod that that does not have a protruding 510 pin.
  • building coils that are too low (exceeding the CRD/amp rate of their battery)
  • using 18650 ICR batteries (i.e. flashlight batteries). These batteries are not high-drain, safe-chemistry IMR or IMR hybrid and will explode when things go wrong.
See @Baditude blog posts on batteries:
  • 9. Battery Basics for Mods: The Definitive Battery Guide for Vaping
    • A popular and essential read to understand which batteries are safe to use in mechanical and regulated mods. Includes a frequently updated list of recommended safe-chemistry, high-drain batteries with their specifications.

    11. Deeper Understanding of Mod Batteries Part 1
    • For those who want to learn the differences between IMR, IMR/hybrid, ICR, and LiPo batteries. What do those numbers and letters on batteries mean? What's an amp rating and why is it more important than the mAh rating when choosing a battery for vaping?
 
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Fredljames

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Jun 1, 2016
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Most of the devises that have batteries exploding/venting are unregulated/mechanical mods. Either the user is:
  • using tanks on a direct-2-battery unregulated/mechanical mod that that does not have a protruding 510 pin.
  • building coils that are too low (exceeding the CRD/amp rate of their battery)
  • using 18650 ICR batteries (i.e. flashlight batteries). These batteries are not high-drain, safe-chemistry IMR or IMR hybrid and will explode when things go wrong.
So if I don't rebuild or build anything - I just buy tanks, coils, and batteries and use them as they are - is it reasonably safe to assume it's low risk?
 
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bwh79

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Innokin are very serious about safety, in general, and battery safety in specific. Which is good, because with a built-in battery like in your CF4, there's nothing that you can do except pray that the manufacturer (in this case, Innokin) has used a quality cell in their device. So you have safety features in place, like short-circuit/low resistance protection, low-voltage protection, and overheat protection. If the device detects an attached resistance that is too low, or what it considers a "short circuit," it won't fire. If the battery voltage is below a certain cutoff, it won't fire. If the temperature on the board gets too high, it won't fire. These all serve to protect your battery and, ultimately, your hide.

When you really need to start worrying about battery safety, is when you start using devices with removable batteries. Then, you're no longer at the mercy of the device manufacturer, and you are able to put in any old cells you please. You need to learn Ohm's law, and "Watt's law" and how they pertain to battery-operated devices. You need to make sure you are purchasing your cells from a trusted supplier, so you don't get stuck with a counterfeit or "re-wrap" battery. You need to know the amp limits of your batteries, and how to stay within those limits. Many of the batteries we use are 20A-rated batteries -- this works out to a limit of about 60 watts (max) per battery on a wattage-regulated device, or about .21 ohms (min) on a single-battery mechanical/unregulated device (when you start using multiple batteries in an unregulated device, it matters whether they are wired in parallel or in series -- parallel allows you to build lower if you want, series requires you to build higher to stay safe.)

Ohm's Law: "V = IR"
Voltage (measured in volts) equals current (measured in amps) times resistance (measured in ohms). Rearrange the terms a little (and use a more familiar vernacular) and you get:

Amps = Volts / Ohms

This tells you the amp drain on your battery in an unregulated device, when the battery is at a particular voltage (charge state) and powering an atomizer with a certain resistance. The amp draw will be highest when the voltage is at its highest, so for safety's sake you should always assume a full charge of 4.2v in this equation. Plug in 4.2 for the volts, and whatever the resistance of your atomizer is for the ohms, and you will find how many amps are drawn from your device at full charge.

For a regulated device like your CF4, the ohms don't directly affect the amp draw. What you're looking at instead, is the wattage. The wattage that's applied to your atomizer, is equal to the wattage being drawn from the battery (minus a few percent for device efficiency). Here's another equation for you:

Watts = Volts * Amps
(or, since we already know that "Amps = Volts / Ohms" you can also write this as "Watts = Volts * Volts / Ohms" or "Watts = Volts^2 / Ohms")

Again, we use a little algebra to rearrange the terms, so we can calculate Amps from the other two known variables:

Amps = Watts / Volts

Now, note that the amps will be highest when the voltage is at its lowest. For this reason, you should always assume a low value for the voltage. 3.0 volts, under load, at low-voltage cutoff, is a reasonable value to use. So here, you will want to plug in 3.0 for the volts, and whatever your device's max wattage is (or the max that you will be using it at) to find the max amp drain at low voltage cutoff. Finally, divide this value by the number of batteries your device uses, to find the amp draw per battery. Technically, if the batteries are wired in series, the full amp drain is "seen" by each of them and not split up among them -- but in that case, the voltage will be higher (the individual cells' voltages added together) and so the end result will be the same. THIS IS ONLY TRUE IN A REGULATED DEVICE! SERIES/PARALLEL CONFIGURATION IN A MECHANICAL OR UNREGULATED DEVICE DO MOST DEFINITELY NOT HAVE THE SAME RESULTS!

So, now that you have a quality cell, from a trusted supplier, and you know the amp limit of that cell, you can plug your values into those equations and know if it's safe to use that cell with a particular device/attachment combination or not. Most people prefer not to run them right at the limit, and instead will leave some "headroom" on the order of 10, 25, or even 50%.
 
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Fredljames

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Jun 1, 2016
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Most of the devises that have batteries exploding/venting are unregulated/mechanical mods. Either the user is:
  • using tanks on a direct-2-battery unregulated/mechanical mod that that does not have a protruding 510 pin.
  • building coils that are too low (exceeding the CRD/amp rate of their battery)
  • using 18650 ICR batteries (i.e. flashlight batteries). These batteries are not high-drain, safe-chemistry IMR or IMR hybrid and will explode when things go wrong.
See @Baditudes blog posts on batteries:
  • 9. Battery Basics for Mods: The Definative Battery Guide for Vaping
    • A popular and essential read to understand which batteries are safe to use in mechanical and regulated mods. Includes a frequently updated list of recommended safe-chemistry, high-drain batteries with their specifications.

    11. Deeper Understanding of Mod Batteries Part
    • For those who want to learn the differences between IMR, IMR/hybrid, ICR, and LiPo batteries. What do those numbers and letters on batteries mean? What's an amp rating and why is it more important than the mAh rating when choosing a battery for vaping?
I didn't see these links sorry - thank you!!! I'll have a look now
 
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medleypat

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Most everything I've seen its people doing dumb things with mech mods. If you use regulated mods (which your coolfire is) you should be fine. If at a later date you decide to buy a mech mod or a regulated mod with a removable battery just make sure you read about battery safety and don't do anything stupid. Asking questions is the smart thing to do.
 
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Susan~S

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So if I don't rebuild or build anything - I just buy tanks, coils, and batteries and use them as they are - is it reasonably safe to assume it's low risk?
Yes, very low risk. You are using an internal battery mod so as long as your mod will fire the coils you are safe.

Since your mod will only fire a coil that is 0.3Ω (and higher) if you tried to fire a coil less than 0.3Ω it would give you a message and not fire it.
 

Fredljames

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Jun 1, 2016
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Innokin are very serious about safety, in general, and battery safety in specific. Which is good, because with a built-in battery like in your CF4, there's nothing that you can do except pray that the manufacturer (in this case, Innokin) has used a quality cell in their device. So you have safety features in place, like short-circuit/low resistance protection, low-voltage protection, and overheat protection. If the device detects an attached resistance that is too low, or what it considers a "short circuit," it won't fire. If the battery voltage is below a certain cutoff, it won't fire. If the temperature on the board gets too high, it won't fire. These all serve to protect your battery and, ultimately, your hide.

When you really need to start worrying about battery safety, is when you start using devices with removable batteries. Then, you're no longer at the mercy of the device manufacturer, and you are able to put in any old cells you please. You need to learn Ohm's law, and "Watt's law" and how they pertain to battery-operated devices. You need to make sure you are purchasing your cells from a trusted supplier, so you don't get stuck with a counterfeit or "re-wrap" battery. You need to know the amp limits of your batteries, and how to stay within those limits. Many of the batteries we use are 20A-rated batteries -- this works out to a limit of about 60 watts (max) per battery on a wattage-regulated device, or about .21 ohms (min) on a single-battery mechanical/unregulated device (when you start using multiple batteries in an unregulated device, it matters whether they are wired in parallel or in series -- parallel allows you to build lower if you want, series requires you to build higher to stay safe.)

Ohm's Law: "V = IR"
Voltage (measured in volts) equals current (measured in amps) times resistance (measured in ohms). Rearrange the terms a little (and use a more familiar vernacular) and you get:

Amps = Volts / Ohms

This tells you the amp drain on your battery in an unregulated device, when the battery is at a particular voltage (charge state) and powering an atomizer with a certain resistance. The amp draw will be highest when the voltage is at its highest, so for safety's sake you should always assume a full charge of 4.2v in this equation. Plug in 4.2 for the volts, and whatever the resistance of your atomizer is for the ohms, and you will find how many amps are drawn from your device at full charge.

For a regulated device like your CF4, the ohms don't directly affect the amp draw. What you're looking at instead, is the wattage. The wattage that's applied to your atomizer, is equal to the wattage being drawn from the battery (minus a few percent for device efficiency). Here's another equation for you:

Watts = Volts * Amps
(or, since we already know that "Amps = Volts / Ohms" you can also write this as "Watts = Volts * Volts / Ohms" or "Watts = Volts^2 / Ohms")

Again, we use a little algebra to rearrange the terms, so we can calculate Amps from the other two known variables:

Amps = Watts / Volts

Now, note that the amps will be highest when the voltage is at its lowest. For this reason, you should always assume a low value for the voltage. 3.0 volts, under load, at low-voltage cutoff, is a reasonable value to use. So here, you will want to plug in 3.0 for the volts, and whatever your device's max wattage is (or the max that you will be using it at) to find the max amp drain at low voltage cutoff. Finally, divide this value by the number of batteries your device uses, to find the amp draw per battery. Technically, if the batteries are wired in series, the full amp drain is "seen" by each of them and not split up among them -- but in that case, the voltage will be higher (the individual cells' voltages added together) and so the end result will be the same. THIS IS ONLY TRUE IN A REGULATED DEVICE! SERIES/PARALLEL CONFIGURATION IN A MECHANICAL OR UNREGULATED DEVICE DO MOST DEFINITELY NOT HAVE THE SAME RESULTS!

So, now that you have a quality cell, from a trusted supplier, and you know the amp limit of that cell, you can plug your values into those equations and know if it's safe to use that cell with a particular device/attachment combination or not. Most people prefer not to run them right at the limit, and instead will leave some "headroom" on the order of 10, 25, or even 50%.
Thank you so much for sending all of this - I'll need to take some time to work it all out in relation to my device but it's been really helpful :)
 

Fredljames

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How hard are you pushing the battery? I try to never go pass 3/4 of what it's rated for.
I'm currently on 9 watts and 4.3 volts and I use an Atlantis Nautilus Mini tank with 1.6ohm BVC coils. I haven't changed or rebuilt anything (I don't even know if you can with these and I especially wouldn't know where to begin). Is this what you mean by your comment? Apologies if not - as I said I know next to nothing!
 
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