Battery questions...

Status
Not open for further replies.

5150Marley

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 26, 2014
212
457
Shhhh its a secret. ;)
I have a Tesla VV/VW mod that came with two ICR 18650 2200 mah 3.7 volt batteries. (they are blue)

Are these safe to use with the Tesla or would the Sony VTC4's (neon/lime green) be a better choice I have a few of those?

Just want to be absolutely sure after I read that thread about the Ego battery blowing up... I want to be real safe when it comes to batteries.
 

Baditude

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Apr 8, 2012
30,394
73,076
71
Ridgeway, Ohio
Three things:

1 - You didn't give a brand name. This makes me think "generic" battery. The vast majority of generic batteries are rejects of the big name battery manufacturers who sell them to battery distributors who slap a new wrap on them, or they are harvested used batteries from old laptop computers re-wrapped and sold as new batteries. Is this what you want to put in your mod and fire close to your face?

2 - ICR batteries are of a volatile chemistry. Volatile means flamable. Should these batteries fail and go into thermal runaway they will vent hot gas and flames. Again, do you want to put this up to your face.

3 - Never assume that batteries that come free in a kit are the right batteries or safe batteries for your mod, especially if it came from China. Vendors like Fastech are notorious for including unprotected ICR Li-ion batteries in their mod kits. They are throw-aways to make you think you are getting something for nothing...and you are getting something worth nothing. Also be wary of any chargers included in a kit. They are likely junk.


The Sony's are a safe chemistry hybrid battery. They are also high drain, which the pulse circuitry of your Tesla's buck boost processor appreciates. Use the Sony's, ditch the no-names.

BATTERY BASICS FOR MODS: IMR OR PROTECTED ICR?
 
Last edited:

DaveP

PV Master & Musician
ECF Veteran
May 22, 2010
16,733
42,645
Central GA
Baditude, I'm shopping around for some replacements for my 2 year old AW 18650 IMR 2000mah batts that are starting to require charging every 4 or 5 hours all of a sudden with a 2 amp load. I'm looking at the Efest IMR and the Sony. The Sony 18650 VTC3/VTC4 is being advertised as an high drain IMR button top, but the chemistry is listed as Li-ion, not LiMn as it normally is for high drain IMR Li-Mn. What am I missing? Does IMR/LMR not stand for lithium manganese rechargeable or is the entire battery industry being led astray? It seems everyone who sells this battery is advertising it with the same conflicting terms.

The Efest and the AW are showing up in battery shootout tests with the Efest just lightly ahead of the AW, but the Efest is about 30% cheaper and getting some good reviews. The Efest is also listed as a lower internal resistance than most lMR batteries and the specs warn against using in a charger that exceeds 4.25v cutoff. I'm good there with my Nitecore I4.

I'm also looking at the Panasonic CGR18650CH, which is a good economical alternative at 2250mah. But, if you look at one, the label says li-ion not li-mn... hmmm.

This thread was a wealth of information for me.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...sonic-imr-18650-2250mah-cgr18650ch-stock.html

I'm also finding advertised IMR batteries that specify that they are protected. Sheesh! One of the Amazon specs listed an Efest IMR as protected. What I'm finding in the offerings is that there are virtually no Li-Mn batts that are above 2000mah. Do you know of any candidates for longer vape time that are safe chemistry?

The more I read and absorb, the more that AW 18650 IMR 2000mah seems like a worthy purchase even at $5 more per battery. My first 4 AW's lasted me just short of two years before I started to notice a drop in vaping time.
 
Last edited:

Baditude

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Apr 8, 2012
30,394
73,076
71
Ridgeway, Ohio
Baditude, I'm shopping around for some replacements for my 2 year old AW 18650 IMR 2000mah batts that are starting to require charging every 4 or 5 hours all of a sudden with a 2 amp load. I'm looking at the Efest IMR and the Sony. The Sony 18650 VTC3/VTC4 is being advertised as an high drain IMR button top, but the chemistry is listed as Li-ion, not LiMn as it normally is for high drain IMR Li-Mn. What am I missing? Does IMR/LMR not stand for lithium manganese rechargeable or is the entire battery industry being led astray? It seems everyone who sells this battery is advertising it with the same conflicting terms.
Ok. Understanding Lithium battery chemistries can be challenging. I spent a month researching this subject prior to writing my battery blogs, and I'm still learning stuff to this day. I'll try to make a complex topic simpler to understand.

There's currently three classes of Lithium batteries:

  • Li-ion ICR - these are the old school "protected" Cobalt based batteries. Higher mAh - but low drain, high resistance, low amps. A volatile chemistry that requires a built-in IC to even be considered safe to use in many devices.

  • Li-Mn IMR - these are relatively new (the last few years). Contain Manganese and/or Nickle making them safer chemistry. Safer chemistry meaning they are inherently safer and not requiring the IC that ICR batteries do, so they are also labeled "un-protected". High drain, low resistance, and high amps.

  • Hybrid chemistry - new on the scene. A mix of ICR and IMR chemistry to allow the best attributes of ICR (higher mAh) and IMR (safe chemistry, high drain, low resistance, and often even higher amps).


Chemistry Profile Attributes

IMR (AW, MNKE, Efest)<<<hybrid (Panasonic & Orbtronic NCR, Sonyvct3 & vct4)>>>(NCR18650B)>>>ICR (AW ICR)

HIGH DRAIN, high amp, low resistance--high drain, high(er) amp, low resistance, high mAh--low drain, low amp, low resistance, HIGH MAH

The Efest and the AW are showing up in battery shootout tests with the Efest just lightly ahead of the AW, but the Efest is about 30% cheaper and getting some good reviews.
By battery shootouts I'm assuming you mean comparative bench testing with sophisticated measuring equipment. Those have their place and can be quite useful in comparing batteries. However, they can not simulate "real world" practical usage in an advanced personal vaporizer.

Most of the battery information available to us is from the flashlight enthusiasts forums, which in many ways can be helpful for our purposes. However, a flashlight is not an APV. Flashlights are a continuous low drain application; most APV's are a burst high drain application, especially with regulated mods using PWM or mechanical mods using a Kick or RBA.

I've used both Efest and AW's in rotations in my regulated mods. I have found AW's to outperform the Efests. Just my practical experience.

I'm also looking at the Panasonic CGR18650CH, which is a good economical alternative at 2250mah. But, if you look at one, the label says li-ion not li-mn.
This battery is a hybrid battery. I currently use one in rotation with a few AW 18650 IMR 2000mAh batteries in my Provari's. I have not noticed any additional battery time with the Panny. Again, my experience.

BTW, the Sony 18650 VTC3/VTC4 fall into the hybrid chemistry group.

I'm also finding advertised IMR batteries that specify that they are protected. Sheesh! One of the Amazon specs listed an Efest IMR as protected. What I'm finding in the offerings is that there are virtually no Li-Mn batts that are above 2000mah. Do you know of any candidates for longer vape time that are safe chemistry?
This just shows the confusion that many vendors have about batteries and how they present their product listings, which may or may not be correct. IMR batteries do not require IC protection due to their chemistry.

A few of the hybrid batteries may have the option to be purchased with IC protection, such as the Orbtronic NCR18650B 3400mAh hybrid. This battery's chemistry is heavily weighted to the ICR side of the fence so it can benefit from some IC protection. It is also not a high drain battery, has high resistance, has only 6.8 amps, and should for all practical purposes be considered an ICR battery. (It is also not recommended for use in APV's, as Orbtronics notes on the product description page.)


These hybrid batteries are high-drain safe-chemistry batteries with the highest mAh ratings:

Panasonic or Orbtronic NCR18650PF 2900mAh and NCR18650PD 2900mAh.

(Orbtronics uses Panasonic battery cells and re-wrap them in a different wrapper; this is a common practice in the battery trade. Even AW uses the best Panasonic batteries and re-raps them.)

The more I read and absorb, the more that AW 18650 IMR 2000mah seems like a worthy purchase even at $5 more per battery. My first 4 AW's lasted me just short of two years before I started to notice a drop in vaping time.
I agree. I still use AW IMR batteries in all of my mods, both regulated and mechanical. I have some AW 18650 IMR's that are 1.5 years old and still kicking.

Battery to battery, AW's will be the most dependable and consistant battery that you can buy. There's a reason that they have earned the reputation as the most popular battery for advanced personal vaporizers. It's also the reason that they are the most counterfeited battery in the world.

Hopefully I've helped lessen your confusion about batteries. :)
 
Last edited:

5150Marley

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 26, 2014
212
457
Shhhh its a secret. ;)
Three things:

1 - You didn't give a brand name. This makes me think "generic" battery. The vast majority of generic batteries are rejects of the big name battery manufacturers who sell them to battery distributors who slap a new wrap on them, or they are harvested used batteries from old laptop computers re-wrapped and sold as new batteries. Is this what you want to put in your mod and fire close to your face?

2 - ICR batteries are of a volatile chemistry. Volatile means flamable. Should these batteries fail and go into thermal runaway they will vent hot gas and flames. Again, do you want to put this up to your face.

3 - Never assume that batteries that come free in a kit are the right batteries or safe batteries for your mod, especially if it came from China. Vendors like Fastech are notorious for including unprotected ICR Li-ion batteries in their mod kits. They are throw-aways to make you think you are getting something for nothing...and you are getting something worth nothing. Also be wary of any chargers included in a kit. They are likely junk.


The Sony's are a safe chemistry hybrid battery. They are also high drain, which the pulse circuitry of your Tesla's buck boost processor appreciates. Use the Sony's, ditch the no-names.

BATTERY BASICS FOR MODS: IMR OR PROTECTED ICR?

Thanks Baditude...

1. They are generic batteries and a charger that came w the mod... I dont use them.
I use a nitecore i4 and the Sony VTC4's... I have 5 of em.

2. Last thing I want is hot gas and flames to shoot out the Tesla... sounds painful.

3. I figured they weren't the best quality and I wanted to be safe thats why I posted and hoped you would reply.
 

DaveP

PV Master & Musician
ECF Veteran
May 22, 2010
16,733
42,645
Central GA
Thanks, Baditude! Great post about the chemistry and the nomenclature. I saw a nod to you and Steam Turbine on PBusardo's battery page for some information he repeated from the two of you. Congrats on that.

I may buy a couple of Efests just to try along with two more AW IMRs to rebuild my battery arsenal. My four current AW's are rapidly shortening in charge life after about 22 months of rotation in my Provari and Sigelei Zmax. I'm now getting around 4 hours on a charge compared to 10 or 12 when they were new. A couple of them are 3.9v right off the charger with a rapid drop to 3.7v.

I can introduce some new ones into the fray and use the old ones for around the house. A 4 hour spare will get me home if I have a new one installed when I leave home most of the time. I just carry a spare for those times when I get re-routed and end up gone for too many hours. Many times the spare comes home in the box without being used.

Lately, a 4 bay Nitecore I4 charger has been worth having. With the lower battery life of late, I'm filling 3 bays quite often.
 
Last edited:

yo han

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 9, 2008
796
396
the Dutch mountains
IMR batteries do not require IC protection due to their chemistry.
Perhaps not because they won't burst into flames but wouldn't it be useful to have protection against overcharge/discharge?
An IMR will still get damaged when discharged below 2.5V
Perhaps no-one will keep on vaping until it has reached such a low voltage but e-cigarettes aren't the only devices using batteries. How about using it in a device which can be turned on and left unattended? (e.g. a flashlight)
 

DaveP

PV Master & Musician
ECF Veteran
May 22, 2010
16,733
42,645
Central GA
Perhaps not because they won't burst into flames but wouldn't it be useful to have protection against overcharge/discharge?
An IMR will still get damaged when discharged below 2.5V
Perhaps no-one will keep on vaping until it has reached such a low voltage but e-cigarettes aren't the only devices using batteries. How about using it in a device which can be turned on and left unattended? (e.g. a flashlight)

In a high end flashlight you'll be able to see the lumen reduction in time to swap them out. A VV/VW mod tries its best to keep the dialed in voltage up at the expense of battery fatigue until it starts to flash at 3.2v or so.

My "high end" flash is a craftsman 170 lumen job that uses NiCad or NiMh AAA cells ... 6 of them. I'm not too worried about flame out. :)

The IMR short test demos I've seen result in a little smoke and some mediocre flames that weren't worthy of the dramatic Li-ion rocket bursts. Most don't pressure the tube enough to form a plume.
 
Last edited:

yo han

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 9, 2008
796
396
the Dutch mountains
I think you're missing my point.
You don't need protected batteries in devices which keep an eye on the voltage themselves of course.
However, if you want to use IMR batteries in "dumb" devices some form of protection against under voltage would be welcome.
Imagine a kid playing with daddy's flashlight containing $10 worth of batteries and leaving it on for the night. Bye bye $10
 

DaveP

PV Master & Musician
ECF Veteran
May 22, 2010
16,733
42,645
Central GA
FWIW, I bought two Efest 18650 V2 2250mah lMR li-ion/LiMn hybrid batteries yesterday and charged them last night. The disclaimer said charge with a Li-ion charger only, not an NiMH charger. My Nitecore Intellicharger I4 does it all using CC and CV modes and will charge Li-Ion, LiMn, NiMH and NiCad in mixed mode provided you follow the instructions for overcurrent conditions that can arise with certain slot combinations .

So, they stayed nice and cool and came off the charger at 4.1v under load on my Provari and 4.2v when checked under no load with my VOM. I popped one in last night an hour before bed and it's 12:30 the next day. It's been a fairly light vaping morning, but the Provari battery check shows 3.7v under load right now. My two year old AW's would have been down to 3.4v by now. So far, so good.
 
Last edited:

DaveP

PV Master & Musician
ECF Veteran
May 22, 2010
16,733
42,645
Central GA
AW IMR batteries are so mainstream that any charger company with a little savvy will realize that to sell product they need to support AW.

Most any Li-ion/LiMn charger is designed to handle most IMR batteries sold. The AW batts a you mentioned are Lithium Manganese (LiMn) and should be fine with the Efest charger you mentioned.

Efest LUC 2 Bay LCD Smart Charger - E Cig eGo, E juice, Mods, Cartomizers, Liquid Nicotine, DIY Flavorings
Efest LUC 2 Bay LCD Smart Charger

This Efest LUC Universal Charger is compatible with all types of rehcargeable Li-ion or Limn batteries including 10440, 14500, 16340, 18350, 18500, 18650, 26500, and 26650. It can charge two batteries simultaneously and has an LCD display screen that shows the charging voltage and charging status.
- See more at: Efest LUC 2 Bay LCD Smart Charger - E Cig eGo, E juice, Mods, Cartomizers, Liquid Nicotine, DIY Flavorings

If you haven't already bought it, this one is also popular and priced right. Either is a good charger, but the Nitecore is priced lower. Nitecore is after market share and they are pricing competitively.

http://www.amazon.com/Nitecore-Inte...d=1393203530&sr=8-1&keywords=nitecore+charger
 
Last edited:

NerdVap0r

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 12, 2014
506
447
Bay Area
AW IMR batteries are so mainstream that any charger company with a little savvy will realize that to sell product they need to support AW.

Most any Li-ion/LiMn charger is designed to handle most IMR batteries sold. The AW batts a you mentioned are Lithium Manganese (LiMn) and should be fine with the Efest charger you mentioned.

Efest LUC 2 Bay LCD Smart Charger - E Cig eGo, E juice, Mods, Cartomizers, Liquid Nicotine, DIY Flavorings


If you haven't already bought it, this one is also popular and priced right. Either is a good charger, but the Nitecore is priced lower. Nitecore is after market share and they are pricing competitively.

http://www.amazon.com/Nitecore-Inte...d=1393203530&sr=8-1&keywords=nitecore+charger

Thx, got my efest luc like a month ago, just wanted to make sure its compatible with lots of variety of batteries especially AW. Alot of people recommended to me.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread