Best/Safest US vendors for VG/PG base and flavors

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Telmos

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May 11, 2016
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I recently started vaping and starting to raise a brow at the very expensive liquids being sold by places like Halocig (one of the first I tried) vs the very cheap DYI material used to make all of the juice, and actually thought trying to make some myself. Are the top e-liquid manufacturers making something their juice from some really high quality PG/VG/Flavors that can't be bought anywhere on their own or are they just charging for the proprietary ways they are mixing them to make unique flavors?

I found some sites (nicotinelabs, liquidbarn, Wizard Labs) that claim to sell high USP grade and/or FDA approved food ingredients. However, most point out that flavors are FDA approved for ingestion and not actual vaping, so are e-liquid manufacturers developing their own flavors and bases just to be safe for vaping?

Are there any US vendors that make their PG/VG and flavors in the US and have it tested with certificates available?

Just trying to figure our safest way to go about new found hobby :)

Thanks!
 
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IDJoel

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I recently started vaping and starting to raise a brow at the very expensive liquids being sold by places like Halocig (one of the first I tried) vs the very cheap DYI material used to make all of the juice, and actually thought trying to make some myself. Are the top e-liquid manufacturers making something their juice from some really high quality PG/VG/Flavors that can't be bought anywhere on their own or are they just charging for the proprietary ways they are mixing them to make unique flavors?
Hi Telmos and welcome to the world of DIY.
Ready-to-vape e-juice manufacturers charge what they do because we the consumers will pay it.
We pay it because it is convenient.
It is convenient because:
-It is ready "right now"
-The work of creating a recipe has been done for us. (All the trial and error, and product used in developing a single recipe has been done for you.)
-If you have access to a brick and mortar store; you can taste (often for free) several/many different flavors until you find one you like. (Again; without the work and expense.)
-lack of know-how to safely DIY
-lack of desire to DIY
-physical/emotional reasons to not DIY

It is not the proprietary "way" they are mixing that you pay for. It is the time, research, development (trial & error), test marketing (imagine making something that tastes good to you; and then imagine making something that will be liked by thousands), production, storage, and finally distribution. All of a sudden you can see why the costs are not just the $1.10 worth of liquid plus the price of a dropper bottle with a cool label.
As you might guess; I don't hold any ill will toward the juice manufacturers.
But, you are also right, that (because I don't have any of that overhead and I am not trying to make a living by selling it) I can, and I do, DIY for a much lower cost per milliliter (at least on the face of it).

A few, I imagine, do have laboratory facilities to actually develop and manufacture their own proprietary flavorings and/or bases (PG/VG/nicotine solutions). But this is very costly. The majority will use product already on the market that can be purchased at a discount from wholesalers.
The good news is that we too have access to the majority of the same flavorings and bases the juice manufactures do.
I found some sites (nicotinelabs, liquidbarn, Wizard Labs) that claim to sell high USP grade and/or FDA approved food ingredients.
For the reputable manufactures, dealers, and resellers; this will be more than a claim. Any vendor that I have purchased through (particularly flavor mfgs.) either already have MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets relating to known hazardous components, safe handling, storage, and emergency response) documents on their website or will gladly provide them when requested.
Many will go beyond and provide Certificates of Analysis (CoA ) which can offer testing for specific undesirable compounds and/or levels of purity. I see these most often with nicotine solutions.
However, most point out that flavors are FDA approved for ingestion and not actual vaping, so are e-liquid manufacturers developing their own flavors and bases just to be safe for vaping?
Correct. Responsible flavoring/base manufactures, especially ones who do not shun the vaping community, should offer a disclaimer to that effect. At this time there are no completed studies (I don't even know if there are any studies under way) on the effects of long-term inhalation (vaping or otherwise) of the materials we now use in DIY. Long term studies will take years, if not decades, and millions of dollars (in my ignorant opinion).
With vaping in general being such a small percentage of the population, and DIY being just a fraction of that, it just has not been cost effective/"good business" for the individual companies to invest in this. The same goes for developing "vaping approved/certified" materials.

So, as adults choosing to vape, and DIYers, we try to educate ourselves, share what we learn, and try to make informed choices based on risk levels we feel comfortable with. Some feel anything is better than smoking, others will choose to avoid additional chemicals/compounds in the different material we use to DIY, and still others do not want any of the risk and quit altogether. This is a personal (and different) choice for each and every one of us. So research, read, and when you can't find answers; ask. Then decide what is right for you.
I will say that I found this recent publication by the British Royal College of Physicians personally affirms the choices I am making for myself. Where, among other encouraging statements, they say "However, the hazard to health arising from long-term vapour inhalation from the e-cigarettes available today is unlikely to exceed 5% of the harm from smoking tobacco." So I feel I have made positive changes from my 30+ year, pack and a half a day habit, that I was unable to permanently shake before I began vaping.
The other thing I like about DIYing is that I DO have choice over the ingredients that go into my juice that I didn't have buying premade over-the counter juice.
Are there any US vendors that make their PG/VG and flavors in the US and have it tested with certificates available?
As I said, no manufacture/vendor (US or otherwise) is offering testing and certification as an inhalation "approved" product. But many of the reputable ones will offer MSDS and/or CoA either on line or upon request.

So, to wrap this up, educate yourself about what is required to safely DIY (there are already lots of good threads on ECF regarding this... I don't need to make this post any longer :blush:). And, if you decide it sounds like a good fit for you, try it.

Start small. Find two or three recipes of flavors/flavor profiles or clones of commercial e-juices that you think you will like. Buy only the equipment and supplies necessary to make those recipes (and don't neglect any safety equipment you don't already have). Choose one of the free recipe calculators that are readily available. Then try mixing a batch or two. See if you enjoy the process. Then you can start to expand your horizons. (If not; you don't have a lot invested yet.)

Take LOTS of notes. Write EVERYTHING down. Keep a RECORD of every step you take. (See where I am going with this?) The only way you will be able to repeat the good results, and avoid repeating bad results, is to be able to know what you did and how you did it.

Don't be discouraged. The first-time DIYer often doesn't turn out a perfect juice right out of the gate. But, with all your good notes ;), you will be able to describe your efforts, and ask questions, and get help from the terrific community here on ECF.

Best Wishes and good luck! :D
 

Telmos

Senior Member
May 11, 2016
82
35
42
Hi Telmos and welcome to the world of DIY.
Ready-to-vape e-juice manufacturers charge what they do because we the consumers will pay it.
We pay it because it is convenient.
It is convenient because:
-It is ready "right now"
-The work of creating a recipe has been done for us. (All the trial and error, and product used in developing a single recipe has been done for you.)
-If you have access to a brick and mortar store; you can taste (often for free) several/many different flavors until you find one you like. (Again; without the work and expense.)
-lack of know-how to safely DIY
-lack of desire to DIY
-physical/emotional reasons to not DIY

It is not the proprietary "way" they are mixing that you pay for. It is the time, research, development (trial & error), test marketing (imagine making something that tastes good to you; and then imagine making something that will be liked by thousands), production, storage, and finally distribution. All of a sudden you can see why the costs are not just the $1.10 worth of liquid plus the price of a dropper bottle with a cool label.
As you might guess; I don't hold any ill will toward the juice manufacturers.
But, you are also right, that (because I don't have any of that overhead and I am not trying to make a living by selling it) I can, and I do, DIY for a much lower cost per milliliter (at least on the face of it).

A few, I imagine, do have laboratory facilities to actually develop and manufacture their own proprietary flavorings and/or bases (PG/VG/nicotine solutions). But this is very costly. The majority will use product already on the market that can be purchased at a discount from wholesalers.
The good news is that we too have access to the majority of the same flavorings and bases the juice manufactures do.

For the reputable manufactures, dealers, and resellers; this will be more than a claim. Any vendor that I have purchased through (particularly flavor mfgs.) either already have MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets relating to known hazardous components, safe handling, storage, and emergency response) documents on their website or will gladly provide them when requested.
Many will go beyond and provide Certificates of Analysis (CoA ) which can offer testing for specific undesirable compounds and/or levels of purity. I see these most often with nicotine solutions.

Correct. Responsible flavoring/base manufactures, especially ones who do not shun the vaping community, should offer a disclaimer to that effect. At this time there are no completed studies (I don't even know if there are any studies under way) on the effects of long-term inhalation (vaping or otherwise) of the materials we now use in DIY. Long term studies will take years, if not decades, and millions of dollars (in my ignorant opinion).
With vaping in general being such a small percentage of the population, and DIY being just a fraction of that, it just has not been cost effective/"good business" for the individual companies to invest in this. The same goes for developing "vaping approved/certified" materials.

So, as adults choosing to vape, and DIYers, we try to educate ourselves, share what we learn, and try to make informed choices based on risk levels we feel comfortable with. Some feel anything is better than smoking, others will choose to avoid additional chemicals/compounds in the different material we use to DIY, and still others do not want any of the risk and quit altogether. This is a personal (and different) choice for each and every one of us. So research, read, and when you can't find answers; ask. Then decide what is right for you.
I will say that I found this recent publication by the British Royal College of Physicians personally affirms the choices I am making for myself. Where, among other encouraging statements, they say "However, the hazard to health arising from long-term vapour inhalation from the e-cigarettes available today is unlikely to exceed 5% of the harm from smoking tobacco." So I feel I have made positive changes from my 30+ year, pack and a half a day habit, that I was unable to permanently shake before I began vaping.
The other thing I like about DIYing is that I DO have choice over the ingredients that go into my juice that I didn't have buying premade over-the counter juice.

As I said, no manufacture/vendor (US or otherwise) is offering testing and certification as an inhalation "approved" product. But many of the reputable ones will offer MSDS and/or CoA either on line or upon request.

So, to wrap this up, educate yourself about what is required to safely DIY (there are already lots of good threads on ECF regarding this... I don't need to make this post any longer :blush:). And, if you decide it sounds like a good fit for you, try it.

Start small. Find two or three recipes of flavors/flavor profiles or clones of commercial e-juices that you think you will like. Buy only the equipment and supplies necessary to make those recipes (and don't neglect any safety equipment you don't already have). Choose one of the free recipe calculators that are readily available. Then try mixing a batch or two. See if you enjoy the process. Then you can start to expand your horizons. (If not; you don't have a lot invested yet.)

Take LOTS of notes. Write EVERYTHING down. Keep a RECORD of every step you take. (See where I am going with this?) The only way you will be able to repeat the good results, and avoid repeating bad results, is to be able to know what you did and how you did it.

Don't be discouraged. The first-time DIYer often doesn't turn out a perfect juice right out of the gate. But, with all your good notes ;), you will be able to describe your efforts, and ask questions, and get help from the terrific community here on ECF.

Best Wishes and good luck! :D
Wow, I think this is the best response I received for anything. Thanks!

You are right about the fact that most agree vaping is 95% safer than smoking and we need to consider our risks. However since I quit smoking over 5 years ago (and still go to hookah a few times a year), I feel like my risks are 5% more than they should and this is why I am at least trying to eliminate some components that are not necessary. Of course best option may be for me to just use pure VG and one type of flavor (and maybe distilled water to compensate for PG) , but I guess I need experimenting.

Thanks again for you well written response!
 
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Cacique

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May 4, 2014
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Great post by IDJoel. I also want to add, think about your lifestyle. IMO, unless you're a health nut, avoiding every type of bad food and bad environment, then you might have something to worry about. With all the toxins in this world, both out of control and within our control (like crap food and drinks), that we need to realize we can't live a life that can't be guarded from every danger. Considering the toxins all the cars, trucks, etc, the information that I've read about e-cigs doesn't concern me much at the moment. It's definitely something to keep an eye out for info, but IMO I'd rather suck on an e-cig than breathe the air coming in through my car window half the time.

But again, this is MY personal opinion. Everyone should use all the info available to make their own decision. Good luck on your DIY!
 
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Telmos

Senior Member
May 11, 2016
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Great post by IDJoel. I also want to add, think about your lifestyle. IMO, unless you're a health nut, avoiding every type of bad food and bad environment, then you might have something to worry about. With all the toxins in this world, both out of control and within our control (like crap food and drinks), that we need to realize we can't live a life that can't be guarded from every danger. Considering the toxins all the cars, trucks, etc, the information that I've read about e-cigs doesn't concern me much at the moment. It's definitely something to keep an eye out for info, but IMO I'd rather suck on an e-cig than breathe the air coming in through my car window half the time.

But again, this is MY personal opinion. Everyone should use all the info available to make their own decision. Good luck on your DIY!
Lol, your right. I became a health nut over the past few years and that's why asking all these questions:) Also, living in NY, you can almost taste the tar from cars just walking down the street. There is a few mm of black gunk on outside windows every few months, so who knows what's in there.
 

BrotherBob

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Telmos

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May 11, 2016
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Might like to read:
Public Health England under fire for saying e-cigarettes are 95% safer
Are Electronic Cigarettes Safe?

"It's funny, we're all concerned if flavors have anything bad in them and yet we smoked for years knowing it was all bad. I'm going to be ...... if I get hit by a bus. My last thought is going to be "But God, I only vaped the good flavors"."
http://..................com/threads/sweet-cream-substitute.94241/

That's all true, as far as research is concerned, vaping seems much safer than smoking (unless we find out otherwise in 10 years). However, I'm not a smoker so do not want to compare the two, just like I would not want to compare it to safety of snorting crack. Also, I think that if we want the FDA to not apply the same regulations they do to cigarettes, we should ourselves try not to use cigarettes in every discussion where we talk about vaping as it just adds more credibility to their claims that they are very similar.
 

mhertz

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Feb 7, 2014
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The ejuice houses uses the same PG/VG and nic as we can use for DIY, and also flavorings, except here, some maybe make there own, but generally I believe it's often capella and TFA etc...

As long as you buy PG and VG that is pharma-grade(USP), then it has been tested already for very high purity and very low impurities... The e.g. VG we buy isn't made specifically for inhalation, as pharma-grade doesn't mean OK for inhalation, but is still OK to do so tests shown, and it's the same the ejuice makers uses... If it should be "OK for inhalation" by defenition, then it should in addition to being pharma-grade, then also be tested for inhalation first and having a medical license licensing this specific usage-sceneraio... Don't frett over this mate and just get USP VG or PG and your fine :)
 
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IDJoel

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Wow, I think this is the best response I received for anything. Thanks!
You're more than welcome. The community here on ECF has helped me along my Vape journey more than I could ever express. I only try to "pay it forward" by sharing what I have learned in hopes that it will offer assistance like I have already received. :D
"It's funny, we're all concerned if flavors have anything bad in them and yet we smoked for years knowing it was all bad. I'm going to be ...... if I get hit by a bus. My last thought is going to be "But God, I only vaped the good flavors"."
:lol::lol::lol::lol: OMG! I've got tears rolling down my face. I can't stop laughing!!!:lol::lol::lol::lol:
 
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Telmos

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dannyv45

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www.e-cigarette-forum.com
Might like to read:
Public Health England under fire for saying e-cigarettes are 95% safer
Are Electronic Cigarettes Safe?

"It's funny, we're all concerned if flavors have anything bad in them and yet we smoked for years knowing it was all bad. I'm going to be ...... if I get hit by a bus. My last thought is going to be "But God, I only vaped the good flavors"."
http://..................com/threads/sweet-cream-substitute.94241/

I often think to myself "If I knew I was going to live this long I would have taken better care of myself":)
 

Jdurand

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Let's all not forget, there seems to be a trend in some possible benefits to vaping as well. If there ever is truly an unbiased, controlled, real world study done on vaping, I swear they will find more pros than cons, heck it might even be good for you in the long run!

Ask how many people here haven't had a common cold since they started vaping!
 
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