Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[slopes]

Just added the solution to the tobacco powder. I must say it took far more drops than tceight indicated in his formula:

"and add about 0.5 to 1 drop per gram of the solution in step one. You want the tobacco barely moist and not wet at all. (in my case with 20g I added about 12 drops..."

I have added about 80 drops to create a damp powder which is at the point of bonding into moist crumbs (using a cake mixing bowl). Don't know if I should add more liquid at this stage.

Smell-wise - it has gone from 'tobacco'... to 'farmyard'... to a distinct 'ammonia' overtone.

 

[kinabaloo]

The reaction of a salt and water to form an acid and a base is called a hydrolysis reaction. Since acids and bases react to form water and salt (neutralization reactions) hydrolysis reactions are the reverse of neutralization reactions. Thus, when sodium carbonate is dissolved in water, carbonic acid and sodium hydroxide are formed. Carbonic acid, H2CO3 is the acid present in soda water. Since carbonic acid decomposes on standing to form CO2 gas and H2O, it is called a weak acid. From conductivity experiments we know that sodium hydroxide, NaOH, is a strong base.

Na2CO3 (aq) + 2 HOH (l) à H2CO3 (aq) + 2 NaOH (aq)

When the acid formed in a hydrolysis reaction is stronger that the base, the effect of such a solution on litmus is that of an acid. For example; a water solution of the weak base, ammonium hydroxide and water, produces ammonium hydroxide (a weak base) and hydrochloric acid ( strong acid). Ammonium hydroxide, on standing, decomposes to form gaseous ammonia, NH3.

When both the acid and the base in a hydrolysis reaction are equally strong (or equally weak), the effect of such a solution on litmus is neither that of an acid or a base. For example, when sodium chloride is dissolved in water and the solution is tested with litmus, neither color changes, indicating that the solution is neither acidic nor basic. Such a solution is said to be neutral [...]

Salts

 

[kinabaloo]

Just added the solution to the tobacco powder. I must say it took far more drops than tceight indicated in his formula:

"and add about 0.5 to 1 drop per gram of the solution in step one. You want the tobacco barely moist and not wet at all. (in my case with 20g I added about 12 drops..."

I have added about 80 drops to create a damp powder which is at the point of bonding into moist crumbs (using a cake mixing bowl). Don't know if I should add more liquid at this stage.

Smell-wise - it has gone from 'tobacco'... to 'farmyard'... to a distinct 'ammonia' overtone.

That's plenty added I'd say. Drop sizes vary a bit, but that's far more than tceight, so I'd definitely not add any more.

The ammonia is either from an ammonium salt additive or perhaps from reaction of the hydroxide with certain amino acids (proteins) (guess). Nothing to worry about (afaik).

Are you heating the mineral oil now ?

 

[slopes]

Does that mean I am going in the right direction?

 

[slopes]

BTW kinabaloo - I am using liquid paraffin for the mineral oil stage. This stuff is usually used to help with loosening bowels(!) - it is light and 100% pure (and I remember it well form my days making swirly psychedelic projector slides as a kid).

 

[kinabaloo]

A mineral oil or liquid petroleum is a liquid by-product of the distillation of petroleum to produce gasoline and other petroleum based products from crude oil. A mineral oil in this sense is a transparent, colorless oil composed mainly of alkanes (typically 15 to 40 carbons) and cyclic paraffins, related to petroleum jelly (also known as "white petrolatum"). It has a density of around 0.8 g/cm3. Mineral oil is a substance of relatively low value, and it is produced in very large quantities. Mineral oil is available in light and heavy grades, and can often be found in drug stores.

Mineral oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So basically, the parafin liquid is a type of mineral oil (straight chain alkanes). So long as it came from the drug store, is not the highly flammable stuff used in heaters (!) and is declared safe for ingestion (is sufficiently pure), then it sounds like the same thing, near enough.

Don't want it too light as it will just evaporate (and be dangerously flammable - explosively fast, not slow like say fragrance oils).

 

[slopes]

Yes it's from a drug store and very safe to ingest. I'm heating up 20ml of it (in a cup sat in a pan of boiling water) as recommended in tceight's method. But it doesn't look like nearly enough to wet the tobacco mixture. When I add the tobacco mix to this, it will form a 'paste' (similar to that tceight was referring to at the water stage). But I can't imagine anything at all dripping out of the end of the icing gun (when I transfer the mixture to that). It will be too dry, it will just sit there forever.

Note: Liquid Paraffin is not to be confused with paraffin or paraffin oil (for burning in heaters) or paraffin wax (used in candles). Liquid Paraffin is clear and has the consistency of a thin maple syrup. It's only sold in drug stores and is used for relieving constipation. It has no additives and the label says it contains 100% liquid paraffin.

 

[kinabaloo]

I'd stick to just the 20ml at first. and only add more if it really seems necessary.

When you do this the next time, it will be a breeze in comparison to the first time which is always frought with worry. I'd be the same.

Have you got citric acid for later ?

 

[slopes]

I have some raw vitamin C powder (ie no filler). Can I use this instead of the Cream of Tartar?

Update: Tobacco/water mixed into the hot oil. It has created a stiff black paste. I'm now letting it stand for 30 minutes.

 

[kinabaloo]

I have some raw vitamin C powder (ie no filler). Can I use this instead of the Cream of Tartar?

Update: Tobacco/water mixed into the hot oil. It has created a stiff black paste. I'm now letting it stand for 30 minutes.

Potassium bitartrate ?

Do you have the link for tceight's method - the one you are using ?

Pure vit C in water has a pH of 2.2-2.5 - pretty strongly acidic.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/pharm/ascorbic.htm

 

[kinabaloo]

the bitartrate has a pH of 3.6 so the ascorbic is quite a lot stronger (lower pH value is more acidic).

 

[slopes]

I have some Cream of Tartar too - so i can use that instead of the VitC (?).

tceight's original method is here. This is the one I am more-or-less following... So I think I will include his 'interface' part (where more hot oil is poured into the icing gun on top of the mixture).

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...s-more-effective-e-liquid-40.html#post1775588

 

[kinabaloo]

I have some Cream of Tartar too - so i can use that instead of the VitC (?).

tceight's original method is here. This is the one I am more-or-less following... So I think I will include his 'interface' part (where more hot oil is poured into the icing gun on top of the mixture).

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...s-more-effective-e-liquid-40.html#post1775588

I would use the ascorbic becasue it is stronger so the small amount used will be more effective.

Make sure your icing gun wont melt with the hot oil added. edit : will be <100C so no problem.

Guess long wait at this stage

 

[slopes]

Yep - 24 hours once the drip is set up. Thanks very much for your comments kinabaloo - they have been incredibly helpful. I don't know if all this will work as desired... but it's fun trying

 

[kinabaloo]

Yep - 24 hours once the drip is set up. Thanks very much for your comments kinabaloo - they have been incredibly helpful. I don't know if all this will work as desired... but it's fun trying

I must get started myself. Have the vit C powder and bicarb already. Just need the oil and baccy.

 

[kinabaloo]

These are the two methods by tceight (variations)

The original method being used by Slopes : http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...s-more-effective-e-liquid-40.html#post1775588

The somewhat simpler method : http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...s-more-effective-e-liquid-51.html#post2518206

 

[tceight]

greetings. sounds like you guys are having fun.
mixing the two 'methods' is fine, and you may find your own improvements, but the measurements of different components are different depending on what you are trying to accomplish.
in method 2, I said about 1 ml / gram.. at 20drops per ml, that would be 400 drops. 90 is fine, I like the description of crumbly cake. sounds about right. Every time I do it, it seems to take different amounts to get what 'feels right' in consistency. (and I have no idea why it 'feels right')

 

[kinabaloo]

step 7. (optional, but really cleans things up a lot)
take 25ml of distilled water, this to the oil, and shake well for a few minutes. Let settle and separate into layers. (may take 10-20 min) The oil will be lighter in colour now, more yellow than amber. There will be some small loss of alkaloids in this step, but because the water will become quite alkaline from the contaminants it absorbs, the alkaloids should still be preferentially dissolved in the oil.
Keep the oil by siphoning off with a syringe and discard all the water and any emulsions that formed.

tceight - might it be a good idea to add a little hydroxide (carbonate solution) to the water before it is added to the oil ?

~~

maybe 'dough' would be a better description than paste, as to what to aim for

 

[tceight]

the amount of oil added... i added oil until it looked saturated, and if any more were added, it would drip out. Expect to get out about half of what you put in. The idea is to keep concentrations high. I toyed with the idea of using the extract to soak fresh tobacco, and then use that... but doubt the slight potential increase would be worth it. Maybe if one did a 'second pass' on the tobacco each time, and saved that fluid for the next batch?
yes, use the citric/ascorbic if you have it.

 

[tceight]

step 7. (optional, but really cleans things up a lot)
take 25ml of distilled water, this to the oil, and shake well for a few minutes. Let settle and separate into layers. (may take 10-20 min) The oil will be lighter in colour now, more yellow than amber. There will be some small loss of alkaloids in this step, but because the water will become quite alkaline from the contaminants it absorbs, the alkaloids should still be preferentially dissolved in the oil.
Keep the oil by siphoning off with a syringe and discard all the water and any emulsions that formed.

tceight - might it be a good idea to add a little hydroxide (carbonate solution) to the water before it is added to the oil ?

~~

maybe 'dough' would be a better description than paste, as to what to aim for

the intent of this step was to wash away some impurities like saponified fats etc. and also to remove any left over hydroxide, so it would not neutralize the acid added next.
with the 'interface' method, there seems to be very little of anything carried over. A lot less than when squeezing out the tobacco. I no longer ever do this wash step.