Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[kinabaloo]

was thinking the same.... thinking back to the bitartrate 'original' and that it worked.(very weak acid, I think it was at best pH3) Still, the efficiency may have come partly/mostly the sequential extraction efficiency.
use a strong acid, at pH4 as proof of effectiveness, and if that works, we prove the the solubility ratio (at least with mineral oil) is great enough at that pH.
then try a weak 'food grade' one such as citric/acetic/tartar etc.

The salt and how easily it is metabolised (broken up) is also pertinent; though off-hand don't see a significant difference likely between say ascorbates and tartrates. But something to bear in mind. Or is this a bit of a nonsense because in solution we are just talking ions, so there's no 'breaking up' to do

 

[DVap]

I've got a couple hundred mg of WTA isolate set aside. I could add it to basic water and add some solvent. The result should be de-colorized water and colored solvent. If I drop the water pH to ~ 5.6, (100% single protonated), I could observe the behavior of the color (WTA) to see if it moves all into the water and decolors the solvent.. or if perhaps it ends up some in both phases...

 

[2cb]

Nicotine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties. However, after coadministration with an MAOI, such as those found in tobacco, nicotine produces significant behavioral sensitization ...

--
apologies if this has been noted before, i don't have time to read all 100 pages, but i wanted to note the potential significance of Harmala alkaloids in tobacco (they are also in Passionflower, Syrian Rue seeds, and many other plants). in the future, i may try adding them to my e-liquid, and post a note on any qualitative change experienced. my hope is to have an e-liquid that provides a "i am done" feeling after 10 hits or so.

 

[2cb]

someone said:

> in the case of Harmine, salt forms are preferential, as the salts are highly water soluble whereas the freebase form is only slightly water soluble.

that is true, but most salts decompose the base when heated. the freebase is the only form that will vaporize in most all cases, if not all. and it is true in the case of Harmine/Harmaline, which i just ordered. so, in a month or so, i will post the results of my experiments.

 

[2cb]

as far as total alkaloid extractions go, the best modern procedures seem to utilize supercritical carbon dioxide extractions. it is an almost universal type of total-alkaloid extraction, and is used on an almost endless variety of plant products. in the case of tobacco, a supercritical CO2 extraction will remove everything you would want: nicotine, aromatic compounds, etc.

for further reading:


Supercritical fluid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Process and apparatus for the semicontinuous extraction of nicotine from tobacco - US Patent 5497792 Description

... aroma components are also removed along with nicotine in this single step extraction process ...

 

[2cb]

parameters for a CO2 extraction of dry tobacco leaf packed into a high-pressure column would be along the lines of:

Batch size: Approximately 60 kg
Pressure: 60 bar. +/-.10 bar
Temperature: 10DEG C.. +/-.5DEG C.
Time: Approximately 8 hours
CO2 mass flow 1250 kg/hr . +/-.20%.

or, in other words:

extraction time >10 hours,
CO2 pressure 50-70 bar,
extraction temp 5-15DEG C.,
CO2 mass 167 kg/kg milled plant material.

that kind of process should get you "pure liquid tobacco" ... in almost every sense of the word.

 

[tceight]

I've got a couple hundred mg of WTA isolate set aside. I could add it to basic water and add some solvent. The result should be de-colorized water and colored solvent. If I drop the water pH to ~ 5.6, (100% single protonated), I could observe the behavior of the color (WTA) to see if it moves all into the water and decolors the solvent.. or if perhaps it ends up some in both phases...

if you start with 100ml alkaloids and dissolve them in the mineral oil like you said, then re-extract to acid at 5.6...
remove the acidified water, basify and then extract back to fresh non polar, measure how much you get back. If it's >90ml, then we will know for certain that the single protonation site is creates enough of a preference for the acid phase.
There might still be issues with using the weaker organic acids, multiple kpa's etc... but it's one less easter egg.

 

[tceight]

Batch size: Approximately 60 kg
Pressure: 60 bar. +/-.10 bar
Temperature: 10DEG C.. +/-.5DEG C.
Time: Approximately 8 hours
CO2 mass flow 1250 kg/hr . +/-.20%.

or, in other words...

That is one helluva kitchen you've got.
I suggest you take the time to at least 'skim' this thread, much/most/all you have said has been discussed before.

 

[kinabaloo]

There might still be issues with using the weaker organic acids, multiple kpa's etc...

By reference to multiple kpa s you mean something like lime juice i guess? If we go with mineral oil for its homogenous nature, surely better to use one known common acid, such as citric acid.

Await DVap's results and hope that 90% figure is reached ...

 

[tceight]

By reference to multiple kpa s you mean something like lime juice i guess? If we go with mineral oil for its homogenous nature, surely better to use one known common acid, such as citric acid.

Await DVap's results and hope that 90% figure is reached ...

if the dilute acid proves effective, then this opens the door to many more options. Such as using ethanoic acid like you mentioned, and thereby reducing potential atomiser clogging etc.
If we start with using the weak acids, and it doesn't work, we could never be sure if it was the pH, or the choice of acid.
by starting with a dilute strong acid, we eliminate variables. If it works, then the pH factor is proven, and then we can try more readily available and otherwise optimal acids.

 

[2cb]

That is one helluva kitchen you've got.
I suggest you take the time to at least 'skim' this thread, much/most/all you have said has been discussed before.

hmmm! i did read the 1st 10 pages, and the last 20 pages, but didn't see anything on these topics, but i will read more then. the CO2 extraction is easily carried out if you purchase a supercritical CO2 extraction device, which is in the possibilities of a small business (about $10-30,000). but a good handyman could build a suitable one for several hundred dollars possibly, using an oxygen tank for plant material, a high pressure pump (800psi is considered "high pressure", several 100 dollars) connected to a dry-ice container, and a collection container where the CO2 would evaporate leaving the essences behind. 55-70bar is in the 800-1000psi range. a full oxygen tank is about 2000psi. CO2 is cheap. but yes, it's not for the average Joe. it's for a small business, or for someone with moderate mechanical skills.

 

[kinabaloo]

"When protonated, the nitrogen in the pyridine ring (six membered ring) has a pKa of about 3, while the nitrogen of the pyrrolidine ring (five membered ring) has a pKa of about 8."​

leftside

~~~

I wonder what role the ammonia release that is noticeable on addition of the sodium carbonate solution to the tobacco plays in freebasing the alkaloids for oil uptake.

 

[VAP3n00b]

So should I not be putting a drop of pf in my liquid then?

 

[tceight]

So should I not be putting a drop of pf in my liquid then?

no one can tell you what to do, or not do. All we can do is give you our 'best guess' as to how to go about it.
The concerns here,(along with the general concerns that no one get hurt) are that if someone does something 'stupid', then vaping will get a bad rap.
Would I do it? probably. I'd start off very slowly and pay close attention to my physical and mental well being, as well as my vaping habits, adjusting accordingly. That is no recommendation to you to try anything.

 

[VAP3n00b]

no one can tell you what to do, or not do. All we can do is give you our 'best guess' as to how to go about it.
The concerns here,(along with the general concerns that no one get hurt) are that if someone does something 'stupid', then vaping will get a bad rap.
Would I do it? probably. I'd start off very slowly and pay close attention to my physical and mental well being, as iwell as my vaping habits, adjusting accordingly. That is no recommendation to you to try anything.

I'm just trying to get the same feel out of vaping that I did with analogs. This can't be more harmful than those. Can it? 1 drop vaped per day seems minuscule.

 

[2cb]

it might help if you don't abbreviate so much, so others don't have to spend hours trying to locate the meaning of your abbreviation. what is pf? also, i would be very wary of anything with ammonia/NH3 in it, because it fairly toxic if inhaled/ingested. i guess it would be a matter of opinion, but as one of the previous links stated, American Spirits are "all-natural", yet have the highest freebase nicotine of all brands, so i would rely on the inherent qualities of a nicotine juice rather than try to get something extra out of it by trying to freebase any acidic forms of nicotine. i think any minimal benefit would not warrant added toxicity (from ammonia for example), or shortened atomizer life (from salts and other possibly corrosive residues). i also disagreed with many of the "facts" that the "leftside" link contained. i would say it was 1% fact (forms of nicotine), and 99% nonsense (all the rest).

 

[2cb]

I'm just trying to get the same feel out of vaping that I did with analogs. This can't be more harmful than those. Can it? 1 drop vaped per day seems minuscule.

i think nobody will disagree with this: nicotine is not very active alone, but it is the synergistic effects in combination with MAOIs that potentiate it, and that is likely a large part of the difference in satisfaction between vaping & smoking. if you wanted more nicotine, you can just put a drop of juice on your tongue, or on your skin. but my guess is that it still won't give you what you are looking for.

but i still don't know what "pf" is hehe.

 

[2cb]

if you are vaping to stay away from tobacco, smoking some Passionflower, or eating some capsules of it (which contains some MAOIs) might help you find some extra satisfaction.

 

[kinabaloo]

i also disagreed with many of the "facts" that the "leftside" link contained. i would say it was 1% fact (forms of nicotine), and 99% nonsense (all the rest).

I was just interested in the pka s and linked to where I saw them. It doesn't at all mean I agree with anything on the link. And you are repeating the erroneous freebase=bad notion stated there.

 

[2cb]

is that what "pf" is? PassionFlower? hehe, gotta go to work now