Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[kinabaloo]

A vegatable oil with longer chain fatty acids, and as little free fatty acids as possible relative to triglycerides (fatty acids on a glycerol backbone) would help minimise the chance that the free fatty acids make the veg oil a less than perfect polar solvent. It is possible that the free fatty acids are the cause of the temporary haze in the oil .

 

[DVap]

I think the acidic water could easily hold all the alkaloid salts (bit I might be wrong) - if there is sufficient acid which there wprobably is as only a tint amount is needed to match the tiny amount of alkaloids. But there's the problem, a few fish in a big big sea, s to speak. Not easy for them to meet up.

Generally speaking, if I started with alkaloids in oil, I would shake with multiple basic water rinses until the water stopped picking up color. The I would flip the alkaloids to acidic water and shake with multiple oil rinses until the oil stopped picking up color. This is simpler than multiple back and forth flips, and only somewhat less effective... assuming < pH 2 and > PH 12 could be reliably maintained in the respective steps. This comes from more of a purification perspective where modest loss is tolerable for the sake of cleanup.

 

[kinabaloo]

Generally speaking, if I started with alkaloids in oil, I would shake with multiple basic water rinses until the water stopped picking up color. The I would flip the alkaloids to acidic water and shake with multiple oil rinses until the oil stopped picking up color. This is simpler than multiple back and forth flips, and only somewhat less effective... assuming < pH 2 and > PH 12 could be reliably maintained in the respective steps. This comes from more of a purification perspective where modest loss is tolerable for the sake of cleanup.

That's good reasoning, and not difficult to do.

However, on the pH values. The base : hydroxide is about 11 but it seems perfectly up to the job. From memory, ascorbic acid has a pH of about 3.5 yet also seems to work. Any reason why you mention 2 and 12 ?

 

[kinabaloo]

Btw, is it a fair analogy to view pH (strength as acid or alkali) as like voltage (reactive potential) and concentration as like power capacity (current x time) ?

Such that the pH is the key factor as to whether a reaction occurs (acid +base > salt) and that higher concentration just speeds up the reaction as there is more meeting of reactant molecules ?

 

[kinabaloo]

slopes - did you try the WTA - nic blend ?

 

[slopes]

kinabaloo - I put a few drops of my hi-nic juice in... but I've been a bit cautious so far. Anyway, I'm fast running out of yesterday's batch - so I will need to prepare some more.

 

[kinabaloo]

kinabaloo - I put a few drops of my hi-nic juice in... but I've been a bit cautious so far. Anyway, I'm fast running out of yesterday's batch - so I will need to prepare some more.

Huh ?! I've heard of 3ml per day, but not 30ml / day !

 

[toto1013]

I hope we don't have a test!!! Thanks for all the sharing of this process....

 

[kinabaloo]

I hope we don't have a test!!! Thanks for all the sharing of this process....

Keep it quiet, but what's phenolphthalein ?

 

[DVap]

That's good reasoning, and not difficult to do.

However, on the pH values. The base : hydroxide is about 11 but it seems perfectly up to the job. From memory, ascorbic acid has a pH of about 3.5 yet also seems to work. Any reason why you mention 2 and 12 ?

At around 2 and 12, you'll see > 90% double protonation or > 90% non protonation. Might be overkill, but I like it,

 

[toto1013]

Keep it quiet, but what's phenolphthalein ?

Got it!!! Does this mean I passed!!!!!

 

[kinabaloo]

Btw, is it a fair analogy to view pH (strength as acid or alkali) as like voltage (reactive potential) and concentration as like power capacity (current x time) ?

Such that the pH is the key factor as to whether a reaction occurs (acid +base > salt) and that higher concentration just speeds up the reaction as there is more meeting of reactant molecules ?

I vagely remember teaching that reactions ocur when there is suffient 'energy' to overcome the something - and it's bugging me that I can't remember the concept / terminilogoty - well, was 25 years ago ...

 

[slopes]

Huh ?! I've heard of 3ml per day, but not 30ml / day !

LOL - I had about 6ml of 'wta'. I must have left about 1.5ml in the bottom of the bottle below the oil (too difficult to get to without sucking up the oily sludge). It was watery too, so the VG required to thicken it up left it quite weak to vape (meaning I vaped more than usual, in the end to compensate). All a bit complicated really... bit I've ended up with an empty bottle.

Atty trouble hasn't helped matters either. Tomorrow my new supply should arrive

 

[kinabaloo]

Got it!!! Does this mean I passed!!!!!

There's no Google allowed during the test

~~~

btw : heard Google would like to buy twitter for like 70 billion. Wonder how much my site is worth ???

 

[kinabaloo]

LOL - I had about 6ml of 'wta'. I must have left about 1.5ml in the bottom of the bottle below the oil (too difficult to get to without sucking up the oily sludge). It was watery too, so the VG required to thicken it up left it quite weak to vape (meaning I vaped more than usual, in the end to compensate). All a bit complicated really... bit I've ended up with an empty bottle.

Atty trouble hasn't helped matters either. Tomorrow my new supply should arrive

That means you get to do some more science

Try out the extra washes that DVap mentioned for example.

 

[kinabaloo]

I might as well come clean : that the veg oil is a better solvent than the mineral oil seems true. But it maybe too good, in the wrong way. It probably passes through (the two stages) more non alkaloids than a better organic solvent (like carbon terachlride say) would. The color is just too great and probably cannot be wholly explained as oxidation.

But I'm not too worried, though it is not ideal.

Extra washes will help some.

If we used that snuff as normal, we'd get more than just alkaloids, though not in the lungs. But there is not likely anything that dangerous that gets through - those are mostly combustion products. Some atomiser ashing aside.

Simply by removing the non-soluble (organic or inorganic) solids we've already made a great stride.

Proof of concept - pass. Workable long term solution - hmmm,,, maybe after some refinements,

 

[DVap]

Btw, is it a fair analogy to view pH (strength as acid or alkali) as like voltage (reactive potential) and concentration as like power capacity (current x time) ?

Such that the pH is the key factor as to whether a reaction occurs (acid +base > salt) and that higher concentration just speeds up the reaction as there is more meeting of reactant molecules ?

pH doesn't really express as "strenght". One can have a solution of a weak acid at a pH < 3 or a solution of a strong acid with a pH of 6. pH and concentration of hydrogen ion are inseperable. A 1N HCl solution will have a pH of 0. A 0.1 N acetic acid solution will have a pH of 2.4.

In the case of HCl, the dissociation into H+ and Cl- is 100%, therefore 1 N HCl will correspond to 1N H+ and pH 1 [-log(1)=0]. In the case of acetic acid, 1N acetic acid, the dissociation into H+ and CH3COO- will be less than 100% (actually only 0.4% is dissociated). Since the dissociation is only 0.4%, 1N CH3COOH will produce only 0.004N H+ [-log(0.004)=2.4].

I'm probably getting off on a tangent.

The meeting of molecules isn't really an issue. Equal volumes of 0.00001N HCl and 0.00001N NaOH (both starting pH=5) are going to neutralize to pH 7 (equal H+ and OH- plus 0.00001N in Na+ and Cl-) just as quickly as equal volumes of 1N HCl and NaOH. It's not about "finding" each other, it's about ion concentration.

To put it yet another way, you don't get a certain percentage of nicotine deprotonation because the pH is 8.5. Rather, the pH is 8.5 because of the percentage of deprotonation. That percentage corresponds to an OH- ion concentration, and from there, a pH can be calculated.

Clear as mud?

 

[kinabaloo]

LOL - I had about 6ml of 'wta'. I must have left about 1.5ml in the bottom of the bottle below the oil (too difficult to get to without sucking up the oily sludge). It was watery too, so the VG required to thicken it up left it quite weak to vape (meaning I vaped more than usual, in the end to compensate). All a bit complicated really... bit I've ended up with an empty bottle.

Atty trouble hasn't helped matters either. Tomorrow my new supply should arrive

Just by poking a syringe through the oil there will be oil contamination on the syringe.

Though often said to be bad for the lungs, mineral oil has been used in stage fog machines - the visble vapor being longer lasting.

Danger is the dose ...

 

[kinabaloo]

pH doesn't really express as "strenght". One can have a solution of a weak acid at a pH < 3 or a solution of a strong acid with a pH of 6. pH and concentration of hydrogen ion are inseperable. A 1N HCl solution will have a pH of 0. A 0.1 N acetic acid solution will have a pH of 2.4.

In the case of HCl, the dissociation into H+ and Cl- is 100%, therefore 1 N HCl will correspond to 1N H+ and pH 1 [-log(1)=0]. In the case of acetic acid, 1N acetic acid, the dissociation into H+ and CH3COO- will be less than 100% (actually only 0.4% is dissociated). Since the dissociation is only 0.4%, 1N CH3COOH will produce only 0.004N H+ [-log(0.004)=2.4].

I'm probably getting off on a tangent.

The meeting of molecules isn't really an issue. Equal volumes of 0.00001N HCl and 0.00001N NaOH (both starting pH=5) are going to neutralize to pH 7 (equal H+ and OH- plus 0.00001N in Na+ and Cl-) just as quickly as equal volumes of 1N HCl and NaOH. It's not about "finding" each other, it's about ion concentration.

To put it yet another way, you don't get a certain percentage of nicotine deprotonation because the pH is 8.5. Rather, the pH is 8.5 because of the percentage of deprotonation. That percentage corresponds to an OH- ion concentration, and from there, a pH can be calculated.

Clear as mud?

Clear to a point, but I want to disagree about 'finding each other' - surely this is a factor with weak dilutions - it takes time for molecules to find each other and react - not for the pH (that's just a bulk property / average) but for the actual reaction to proceed - as in salting out the alkaloids.

Surely these are two different things. "The meeting of molecules isn't really an issue" - not for pH but it is for how long it might take for all the reactants to have reacted

 

[DVap]

That means you get to do some more science

Try out the extra washes that DVap mentioned for example.

Aside from the rinses, one thing I never do is press out the tobacco. Counterintutive, but I'm guessing if pressing would increase my alkaloid yield by 15%, it would increase my crap yield by a much greater percentage. I should probably actually test that, but it sounds too much like work. From what I've seen, Tceight's procedure doesn't use too much of an excess of oil.. so the pressing sounds pretty necessary.