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Call me crazy but why do you think the smell of ammonia is a good thing? Wouldn't that mean some of the organic amines are being destroyed, maybe the good ones? Else, where is the nitrogen comming from? Am I missing something?
Here's what I'm trying so far:
1) 20 snus pouches (Marlb. Mint) cut open and put in beaker.
2) Add to snus - 30ml of saturated sodium carbonate solution in distilled water.
-30ml extra virgin olive oil.
3) Warm with hot water bath and stir (for a while) then let sit overnight.
4) Placed large square of damp cotton cloth (T-shirt material) in large funnel. Rewarm the mixture. Pour and scrape mixture into cloth in funnel. Gather up edges of cloth, twist closed and squeeze/twist (HARD) till most of liquid is out (used disposable, latex rubber gloves).
That's as far as I've gotten so far. Need to pick up some vitamin C powder tomorrow or maybe lime juice like you are using slopes (haven't decided yet).
Resulting liquid is aprox. 20mls water layer (very dark brown) and 30mls oil layer (dirty/cloudy light greenish-brown).
Couple thoughts:
1-Why not use vinegar (acetic acid) for acidification? Do you think it would make the vape solution taste bad? (maybe I'll try vaping some weak vinegar in VG one of these days
).
2-Wouldn't it make at least some sense (DVap?, kina?, anyone?) to extract the alkaloids directly into neutral or slightly acidic water then "wash" the water with oil (olive or mineral), or, "flip" to the base and extract with oil then re-extract with a very small amount of acidic water? I'm trying to think of ways to make it easier to separate out the extracted solids (would be easier to filter them out of a water slurry rather than an oily mixture).
I'm finding that by far the most problematic elements in all of this are the physical steps such as filtering, separation of layers, grinding of tobacco, etc. Tough to do these things in a kitchen without the proper lab equipment.
Anybody have any suggestions for better ways to filter this mess?? There are some really fine particulates to remove.
1) 20 snus pouches (Marlb. Mint) cut open and put in beaker.
2) Add to snus - 30ml of saturated sodium carbonate solution in distilled water.
-30ml extra virgin olive oil.
3) Warm with hot water bath and stir (for a while) then let sit overnight.
4) Placed large square of damp cotton cloth (T-shirt material) in large funnel. Rewarm the mixture. Pour and scrape mixture into cloth in funnel. Gather up edges of cloth, twist closed and squeeze/twist (HARD) till most of liquid is out (used disposable, latex rubber gloves).
That's as far as I've gotten so far. Need to pick up some vitamin C powder tomorrow or maybe lime juice like you are using slopes (haven't decided yet).
Resulting liquid is aprox. 20mls water layer (very dark brown) and 30mls oil layer (dirty/cloudy light greenish-brown).
Couple thoughts:
1-Why not use vinegar (acetic acid) for acidification? Do you think it would make the vape solution taste bad? (maybe I'll try vaping some weak vinegar in VG one of these days
).2-Wouldn't it make at least some sense (DVap?, kina?, anyone?) to extract the alkaloids directly into neutral or slightly acidic water then "wash" the water with oil (olive or mineral), or, "flip" to the base and extract with oil then re-extract with a very small amount of acidic water? I'm trying to think of ways to make it easier to separate out the extracted solids (would be easier to filter them out of a water slurry rather than an oily mixture).
I'm finding that by far the most problematic elements in all of this are the physical steps such as filtering, separation of layers, grinding of tobacco, etc. Tough to do these things in a kitchen without the proper lab equipment.
Anybody have any suggestions for better ways to filter this mess?? There are some really fine particulates to remove.
I've found that most of the fine particulates stay up in the oil layer leaving the acidic water fairly clear - so that part of the process does a lot of the filtering for you.
Possibly additives to cigarette tobacco to help freebase nicotine.
Salts are the likely source of the ammonia. For example, chloride salt :
2 NH4Cl + 2 CaO → CaCl2 + Ca(OH)2 + 2 NH3
Possibly, ammonia has another more direct role
Ammonia in Cigarettes and Smokeless Tobacco Products - Social Anxiety Forum
Ammonia potently enhances NMDA, Glutamate, and Ca2+ activity in the brain. As is common knowledge, NMDA/Glutamate is the major/most important mechanism causing addiction to opiates, nicotine, and most other addictive drugs. NMDA/glutamate activation causes the brain to hard-wire the rewarding effects of Addictive substances into the memory, thus causing an individual to strongly associate the rewarding effects with the specific drug that was consumed.
Also, not only is NMDA the major pathway causing addiction....NMDA activation is actually essential in order for Nicotine to cause Dopamine release (unlike other drugs, where NMDA/glutamate/Ca2+ activation is not essential to cause Dopamine release) .....meaning, Ammonia will directly enhance the rewarding effects of nicotine, while at the same time enhancing the brain's hard-wiring of the rewarding effects.
Also, not only is NMDA the major pathway causing addiction....NMDA activation is actually essential in order for Nicotine to cause Dopamine release (unlike other drugs, where NMDA/glutamate/Ca2+ activation is not essential to cause Dopamine release) .....meaning, Ammonia will directly enhance the rewarding effects of nicotine, while at the same time enhancing the brain's hard-wiring of the rewarding effects.
Ammonia in Cigarettes and Smokeless Tobacco Products - Social Anxiety Forum
Good point slopes. I'll keep that in mind as I proceed.
slopes: What did you use for a "cloth pouch"? And, what does a garlic press look like and where can I get one?
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I wonder of this is because the oil is of lower density, or something else. The particles stay in the oil because they area already in the oil, or prefer to be in the oil ?
If I took some water with fine particulate suspension, could I shake with mineral oil to reduce that particulate content ?
If I took some water with fine particulate suspension, could I shake with mineral oil to reduce that particulate content ?
I see. I see. So there must be ammonium salts added to the tobacco or maybe even naturally occurring(?). does that mean they will be extracted along with the alkaloids and we will end up vaping them?
Didn't I read somewhere that menthol enhances the effects of nicotine in cigarettes? What is menthol? Is that some type of amine?
Edit: Nevermind, I see that it is not an amine.
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Note sure how relevent/true the glutamate pathway connection is and dont have time to look into it further atm, but thought worth posting.
The ammonia is released by the hydroxide so won't be in the WTA.
"Menthol has local anesthetic and counterirritant qualities, and it is widely used to relieve minor throat irritation. Menthol also acts as a weak kappa Opioid receptor agonist." Mostly it is thought liked as making smoke seem less harsh.
The ammonia is released by the hydroxide so won't be in the WTA.
"Menthol has local anesthetic and counterirritant qualities, and it is widely used to relieve minor throat irritation. Menthol also acts as a weak kappa Opioid receptor agonist." Mostly it is thought liked as making smoke seem less harsh.
You mean the results that I just now finished working up?
From the 17 grams of tobacco, I would expect to get 200 mg of alkaloids using my procedure.
Seeing as I only collected half the mineral oil, I would expect up to 100 mg of alkaloids to be recovered once I morphed from tobacco/sodium carbonate/mineral oil.
My yield was exactly 100 mg, seemingly confirming that tobacco/sodium carbonate/mineral oil can indeed provide a decent extraction along the percentages of my WTA extraction.
One thing I did note about the WTA's isolated via tobacco/sodium carbonate/mineral oil, the color of the alkaloids is more a straw yellow than the copper color I'm accustomed to.
And now the vape................ That's WTA!
I mixed it to 32.2 mg/mL... I'll get a determination on the stuff in the next day or two.
Conclusion: Mineral Oil/Sodium Carbonate can pull 12 mg of alkaloids out of a gram of NAS tobacco... just like my more complicated procedure.
From the 17 grams of tobacco, I would expect to get 200 mg of alkaloids using my procedure.
Seeing as I only collected half the mineral oil, I would expect up to 100 mg of alkaloids to be recovered once I morphed from tobacco/sodium carbonate/mineral oil.
My yield was exactly 100 mg, seemingly confirming that tobacco/sodium carbonate/mineral oil can indeed provide a decent extraction along the percentages of my WTA extraction.
One thing I did note about the WTA's isolated via tobacco/sodium carbonate/mineral oil, the color of the alkaloids is more a straw yellow than the copper color I'm accustomed to.
And now the vape................ That's WTA!
I mixed it to 32.2 mg/mL... I'll get a determination on the stuff in the next day or two.
Conclusion: Mineral Oil/Sodium Carbonate can pull 12 mg of alkaloids out of a gram of NAS tobacco... just like my more complicated procedure.
Wow, good news
And many thanks DVap from, I'm sure, all the regulars here for your hard work and patient, methodical approach.
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The color difference is maybe down to less oxidation in the simpler procedure?
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I'll have to give the mineral oil another shot. Seems it does work, just needs more time (patience). I was too swayed by color (that's the problem with not having analytical tools to hand).
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The most dangerous aspect of my WTA extraction is avoided in Tceight's procedure, so I think we've reached the point where I can start to tell folks how to get the WTA's produced by Tceight's procedure purified. In order to achieve purification of tobacco alkaloids, we'll have to leave the kitchen chemistry behind, and start to deal with strong acids and bases (but at fairly dilute levels). A bit of equipment will be needed as well. The single greatest hazard here will be the fact that the alkaloids will be purified and isolated prior to mixing down into e-liquid.
Stay tuned.
Stay tuned.
Wow, good news
And many thanks DVap from, I'm sure, all the regulars here for your hard work and patient, methodical approach.
I thought my patient, methodical approach drove you crazy?
I thought my patient, methodical approach drove you crazy?
Yin and Yang ... *
(though I did mention mineral oil as a possible non-toxic, non-polar long ago)
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A bit like biodiesal from chip fat, it does seem a bit far fetched at first. But (in hindsight) it's not really such a technical wizardry, more a matter of proving that the theory is effective on the practical level.
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I have atheory that Yin wants to be more Yang and vice versa. And with age I realise the difference between what is, and what wants to be
For example, I have a preoccupation with tidyness and order, but ask anyone else and they'll you straight that my stuff (and life) is a bit of a mess ("hey, that's ordered chaos").
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Curious ...
Would be nice if certain online stores would stock 'kits' along the lines of mod kits but those stores that depend on e-liquid sales are not too likely to get involved
Might be postal restrictions too given that we are talking chemicals and liquids at that
These days it's hard to even get citric acid powder from a pharmacy without a lot of fuss.
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It's nice also that we can begin setting a kind of benchmark. Most people would rather purchase WTA than make it, but the fact that it can be made means there's a limit to what peple would be willing to pay in terms of fair mark-up.
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DVap - by the way, how does the mineral oil look after separation - much color or fairly light in color?
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DVap - by the way, how does the mineral oil look after separation - much color or fairly light in color?
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