Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[tceight]

ouch

lol, was referring to the unending stream of what if's that keep going through MY brain..

....... for so far have no alternate solution to what would be a most unfortunate, though not disastrous, limitation.

disastrous only in absolute limitation of yield, and the reduced potential for high levels of purification.
but at least we would know, and could start looking for other alternatives. Your avocado oil might be a good candidate.

 

[kinabaloo]

lol, was referring to the unending stream of what if's that keep going through MY brain..

disastrous only in absolute limitation of yield, and the reduced potential for high levels of purification.
but at least we would know, and could start looking for other alternatives. Your avocado oil might be a good candidate.

50% yield - though could be better by adjusting volumes - would n't be toooo bad, as have quality, and still a reasonable quantity (still higher than smoking the tobacco).

Would be nice if we could flip the alkaloids both ways like magic, but as DVap said, it's not real-world, just chemical idealism.

~~~

One of those drug screening setups would be nice - could compare 100 solvents at a time ...

 

[tceight]

.......................... the known fact that adequate alkali is absolutely critical. I've tested on un-pH modified tobacco, and the recovery is truely horrible, so don't skimp on the alkali. ...........................

missed this nugget first pass.
I can't speak quantitatively, but I would have to agree with this.
Early on, I had a small vial of unmodified tobacco soaking in mineral oil for a week, and it didn't pick up much colour at all.

 

[kinabaloo]

How about lowering the temperature (to near freezing point) maybe this would help migrate the alkaloids to the oil ?

 

[tceight]

how about actually freezing? brings us back to the tobacco popsicle experiment. lol
hmmmmm see, more speculating... but just might be on to something there.
as the crystal lattice forms, it forces out the impurities, raising their subjective concentration.
Tried the popsicle before to just concentrate the liquid, and had some success. Combined with the non-polar, it might put it over the top.

 

[kardenm]

Maybe I'm hitting something that's gonna be mentioned in the posts above this one that I've not read yet.. but it looks like it was an unfortunate choice of words that seemed "pointed" to some of us, but really wasn't directed that way.

I'll say it again; "No. Never said or meant any such thing. Sorry you all misunderstood. Never meant to imply lab results were usless, quite the opposite. Geez. I really feel bad that you were offended. Should have kept my mouth shut. You guys are my heros. Thanks for your effort tceight, Dvap, slopes, kina, others. "

Definetely not pointed at anyone, sorry if it sounded that way.

 

[tceight]

I'll say it again; "No. Never said or meant any such thing. Sorry you all misunderstood. Never meant to imply lab results were usless, quite the opposite. Geez. I really feel bad that you were offended. Should have kept my mouth shut. You guys are my heros. Thanks for your effort tceight, Dvap, slopes, kina, others. "

Definetely not pointed at anyone, sorry if it sounded that way.

what? are you still going on about that? Geez... should have kept my mouth shut.;-)

 

[DVap]

how about actually freezing? brings us back to the tobacco popsicle experiment. lol
hmmmmm see, more speculating... but just might be on to something there.
as the crystal lattice forms, it forces out the impurities, raising their subjective concentration.
Tried the popsicle before to just concentrate the liquid, and had some success. Combined with the non-polar, it might put it over the top.

Maybe getting a bit too close to a silly-walk going in this direction?

 

[tceight]

Maybe getting a bit too close to a silly-walk going in this direction?

possibly... but then the entire attempt with kitchen stuff was silly in the first place too.
Freezing is one method of purifying salt water for drinking. if it can push out the strong sodium and chlorine ions, then alkaloids should be a breeze.
the popsicle I made last year, was pure crystal ice at one end, and a tarry 'hockey puck' at the other, that cleaved off.
That was with a simple water soak, so was full of impurities.
if done after the initial extraction, just to concentrate the dilute water, then it may have potential.

this btw, is not 'out there'... it is a 'lab' procedure in the making of very high purity metals.

~~~ thanks Kin! have to dig out those old posts.

 

[kinabaloo]

how about actually freezing? brings us back to the tobacco popsicle experiment. lol
hmmmmm see, more speculating... but just might be on to something there.
as the crystal lattice forms, it forces out the impurities, raising their subjective concentration.
Tried the popsicle before to just concentrate the liquid, and had some success. Combined with the non-polar, it might put it over the top.

At the other end of the conditions scale, I noticed darker oil when the oil or whole thing was gently warmed. Thought of this as speeding up, but it might also be an absolute change; perhpas it makes the oil more accommodating by being less viscous / lower density. This effect would depend on the water content being minimal (but not short of carbonate / pH by amy means).

 

[kinabaloo]

How about displacement, if there's such a thing (if not, I invent right here )

Dissolve another salt (insoluble in oil) in the water layer to saturation so that it displaces the alkaloids that then forcibly are migrated to the oil.

Something that will neutralise (use up) all the hydrogen bonds available in the water. Perhaps common salt ?

 

[tceight]

How about displacement, if there's such a thing (if not, I invent right here )

Dissolve another salt (insoluble in oil) in the water layer to saturation so that it displaces the alkaloids that then forcibly are migrated to the oil.

Something that will neutralise (use up) all the hydrogen bonds available in the water. Perhaps common salt ?

Sodium chloride 'salting' is used extensively in A/B transfers, normally to help with emulsions, and to remove water from the non-polar solvent by osmotic pressure.
I don't know/believe that it works as you are describing.

 

[kinabaloo]

Sodium chloride 'salting' is used extensively in A/B transfers, normally to help with emulsions, and to remove water from the non-polar solvent by osmotic pressure.
I don't know that it works as you are describing.

I blame the cheese I was just eating

Without looking up A/B tranders and de-rusting on osmotic pressure, I dont quite get that technique but it seems similar.

I just think if one dissolved substance could go elsewhere but the other substance cannot, the one that cannot can displace the one that can.

Don't laugh !

~~~

I guess a/b is acid/base, as in the music genre

 

[kardenm]

How about displacement, if there's such a thing (if not, I invent right here )

Dissolve another salt (insoluble in oil) in the water layer to saturation so that it displaces the alkaloids that then forcibly are migrated to the oil.

Something that will neutralise (use up) all the hydrogen bonds available in the water. Perhaps common salt ?

Isn't that sort of what they are doing here? Erowid Syrian Rue Vaults: Extraction 2 : Acetic Acid Extract (per Mankse)

But would that just drive the citrates to the hydrochlorides? (make them more insoluble in the oil?)

 

[kinabaloo]

Isn't that sort of what they are doing here? Erowid Syrian Rue Vaults: Extraction 2 : Acetic Acid Extract (per Mankse)

But would that just drive the citrates to the hydrochlorides? (make them more insoluble in the oil?)

We are discussing the basified water and oil step!

 

[kardenm]

Maybe some other salt like... sodium citrate??

 

[DVap]

I should warn that I've not messed with determination of a partition coefficient in almost 30 years, and I've only done it a couple times at that, and only worked hard enough the get the lab grade. Still, this is probably a couple more times than the rest of you.

(All procedures performed at 22°C)

Combined: 10mL of 100 mg/mL nicotine in glycerin, 100 mL of saturated aqueous sodium carbonate, and 100 mL of light mineral oil. Agitated thoroughly and discarded the aqueous phase. (the nicotine will get to "choose" it's phase here, either oil or alkali aqueous).

(If you're going to nitpick the fact that the glycerin will end up in the aqueous phase, and make the aqueous phase volume more like 109mL, or worse, wonder how the glycerin might affect the partitioning, I will hunt you down and once I catch you, I'll think of something at least slightly unpleasant to do to you...)

To the oil phase, added 50mL of 4N sulfuric acid. Agitated thoroughly and discarded the oil phase. (The nicotine salt is going to go into the acidic phase, period).

Added 25 mL of a non-polar organic solvent (hazardous) to the acidic water to wash out any traces of oil and agitated thoroughly. Discarded the organic phase. (The nicotine salt is going to remain in the acid phase, but we don't any traces of oil. The non-polar organic scavenges it from the acidic phase).

To the acidic phase (50 mL of 4N sulfuric acid), added 50mL of 5N NaOH (don't try this, uhkay? This stuff will teach you the meaning of "caustic burn"). Added 25 mL of a non-polar organic (hazardous) with a known very high partition coefficient for nicotine -vs- alkaline aqueous, and the mixture was shaken thoroughly. The organic phase was collected and the alkaline aqueous phase was discarded. (The nicotine is going into the organic phase here. Partition coefficient is awfully high. Could have done a second agitation with more organic, but experience says "no").

Dried the organic phase.

I can either determine nicotine on a per mL basis and multiply by the volume of organic phase to get total mg nicotine, or I can strip the organic and measure the volume of isolated nicotine. Second option chosen.

Stay tuned for measured nicotine recovery and experimentally determined partition coefficient for nicotine in oil -vs- saturated aqueous sodium carbonate (The organic phase does fairly reek of nicotine, btw).

 

[DVap]

Sodium chloride 'salting' is used extensively in A/B transfers, normally to help with emulsions, and to remove water from the non-polar solvent by osmotic pressure.
I don't know/believe that it works as you are describing.

Yep. Interestingly enough, I've not had to do salting in relation to WTA extraction. I've was tempted, but I cut my teeth busting emulsions.

 

[kinabaloo]

I should warn that I've not messed with determination of a partition coefficient in almost 30 years, and I've only done it a couple times at that, and only worked hard enough the get the lab grade. Still, this is probably a couple more times than the rest of you.

(All procedures performed at 22°C)

Combined: 10mL of 100 mg/mL nicotine in glycerin, 100 mL of saturated aqueous sodium carbonate, and 100 mL of light mineral oil. Agitated thoroughly and discarded the aqueous phase. (the nicotine will get to "choose" it's phase here, either oil or alkali aqueous).

(If you're going to nitpick the fact that the glycerin will end up in the aqueous phase, and make the aqueous phase volume more like 109mL, or worse, wonder how the glycerin might affect the partitioning, I will hunt you down and once I catch you, I'll think of something at least slightly unpleasant to do to you...)

Not at all, I was going to pick on the 22C ambient temperature; CODEX suggests 21C

Good work !

~~~

just a joke; overgorged on cheeese; tryptamine buzzz

~~~

At saturation the molecules will be elbowing each other for space like in a crowded bar, say; the alkaloids will fly out if pass an open door (the oil).

Wouldn't it shift the balance of the equilibrium in favor of alkaloid to oil migration?

~~~

Maybe sucrose - one can get 2kg of that in a liter of water. That should push out the alkaloids.

 

[DVap]

not at all, i was going to pick on the 22c ambient temperature; codex suggests 21c

good work !

must... Hunt... Down... Kin... And... Slap... Him... Upside... Head... With... Codex... twice.

At saturation the molecules will be elbowing each other for space like in a crowded bar, say; the alkaloids will fly out if pass an open door (the oil).

Wouldn't it shift the balance of the equilibrium in favor of alkaloid to oil migration?

It doesn't really work like that... it's not like a crowded bar. I can think off-hand of what's known as the 'common ion effect' affecting the solubility of say sodium chloride in a solution of potassium chloride...the common chloride anion plays a part, probably won't have a lot of luck getting a lot of sodium chloride to dissolve in a saturated solution of potassium chloride..(and given time, I'd bet the equilibriums at play would end up with a balance of dissolved and precipitated sodium and potassium chloride) and that's a bit like a crowded bar... but you could probably get a bunch of sucrose into that same solution because the non-ionic sucrose really doesn't give a flip about chloride, sodium, or potassium. In the context of what's going on here.

There are a lot of factors in play.. I can't recall meaningfully a lot of them, intermolecular fiddling, energy, kinetics, etc. (Being a spectroscopist, I forget all kinds of things that are off the straight and narrow of what I do day to day!)

Alkaloids probably won't give a 2nd thought to the presence of these compounds.

Best best is to read up on solubility to help get past the analogous thinking that seems to be knocking you off course. Solutions are weird.