Bought my first clone.... Why do I feel so guilty!?

[KurrptSenate]

It's only a counterfeit if you or the company selling the item tried to pass it off as the real thing.

I can't say I've felt bad owning any replica to date. Of course it's nicer to own the real deal, but not all of us have the means to do so

 

[Technohydra]

Not to get into the semantics, but by definition, counterfeiting is copying. Intent doesn't enter into the equation. If you make a fake $100 bill and have a sworn statement that you never intended to spend it, pass it off as real, or profit from it, but instead demonstrate what an effective copy it is, you are still going to federal prison for counterfeiting. The act of copying made the crime, not the intent behind the act. If the opposite was true, a vigilante killing of a serial killer would not be punishable in court, but would be accepted and praised social behavior.

 

[VaPreis]

While I don't think it's quite right that the clones carry the same engravings as the originals, I otherwise don't have a problem with clones.

These things are fancy flashlight tubes and they don't even have the decency to give you a light bulb with them. If the prices of original devices were even in the scope of reasonable, there would be no market for clones.

 

[bluecat]

Not to get into the semantics, but by definition, counterfeiting is copying. Intent doesn't enter into the equation. If you make a fake $100 bill and have a sworn statement that you never intended to spend it, pass it off as real, or profit from it, but instead demonstrate what an effective copy it is, you are still going to federal prison for counterfeiting. The act of copying made the crime, not the intent behind the act. If the opposite was true, a vigilante killing of a serial killer would not be punishable in court, but would be accepted and praised social behavior.

If there was no copyright, there is no proof of who first came up with the idea.

These are similar to Paris Hilton when she tried to copyright/trademark "That's Hot" and Beyonce to trademark her daughter's name.

Besides 90% of the originals are all copies of another, except with a square cap vs a round or something like that.



buy what you want. It is just like a toaster.

 

[Technohydra]

More to the point, every mech is a copy of the first mech ever made, really. Just a different look / material / extra features, like floating pins and magnetic buttons.

 

[crxess]

Not to get into the semantics, but by definition, counterfeiting is copying. Intent doesn't enter into the equation. If you make a fake $100 bill and have a sworn statement that you never intended to spend it, pass it off as real, or profit from it, but instead demonstrate what an effective copy it is, you are still going to federal prison for counterfeiting. The act of copying made the crime, not the intent behind the act. If the opposite was true, a vigilante killing of a serial killer would not be punishable in court, but would be accepted and praised social behavior.

Your argument only holds water as the Law specifically states any attempt to reproduce US Currency is a Felony. This is a Specific not a broad reaching law and only covers Federally regulated currency.
Sorry, but 3D printer manufacturing would have already been banned if everything was inclusive.

 

[ConradM]

There's a lot of debate of clones are actually just Chinese version made from the spec of the original maker. Some think that the original designers are selling the designs to
Chinese companies and getting money on both ends. Keep the USA made demand high, but get money on the back end of Chinese made. The reason they think this is because of how quickly clones come to market. There was one instance where the clone was on the market before the original, but somehow the clone was a spot on replica. I wouldn't sweat it. If you can't get on the waiting list, then whoever is making obviously isn't hurting.

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Makes perfect sense.

Personally, I've always been a fan of not spending more than I need too. I have a bunch of chinese parts on my sportbike and probably saved well over $500 buying out of china.

 

[Ryedan]

I'm wondering if anyone else out there has purchased one of these and what your impressions might be?

I have the FT copy of the Nemesis with all the markings. Honestly, if they had offered it without the artwork, I think I would have bought that. It does not however bother me. I'm never going to sell it as an original, so my conscience is clear.

 

[Technohydra]

Your argument only holds water as the Law specifically states any attempt to reproduce US Currency is a Felony. This is a Specific not a broad reaching law and only covers Federally regulated currency.
Sorry, but 3D printer manufacturing would have already been banned if everything was inclusive.

I'll do you one better, then. Lets say you take an item that is patented (keeping in mind I realize that most PV products are not) and make a 95-100% copy of it. You have not broke the law. On the other hand, the second you attempt to sell it, you are profiting on someone else's intellectual property, and they are owed money. Doesn't matter if you call it a clone or not, the law makes the determination based on % of similarity to the original product as described in the patent / TM, etc. If this were not the case, then we would have cloning of everything in the US. You are fully within your legal rights to make a 100% copy of a patented item, provided it is for your personal use. So you could 3D print a replacement part for your laser printer and use it and be within the law. You cannot, however, make a 100% copy out of 3D printed parts and electronics of a laser printer and sell it.

This is all a moot point, since all of about 10 products are probably patented in our arena. If they were, then the clones that are 95+% would be declared counterfeits (assuming the OEM filed suit) and not allowed past customs in most cases. They would certainly not be allowed to be sold by US retailers. I'll admit to a non-applicable example earlier, but this is a bit more on point (and just as pointless). A copy is still a counterfeit if it is identical or nearly so, according to intellectual property law.

I will not debate this further publically in an effort to not further hijack what is a good thread. PM is a thing.

 

[Dac311]

Not to get into the semantics, but by definition, counterfeiting is copying. Intent doesn't enter into the equation. If you make a fake $100 bill and have a sworn statement that you never intended to spend it, pass it off as real, or profit from it, but instead demonstrate what an effective copy it is, you are still going to federal prison for counterfeiting. The act of copying made the crime, not the intent behind the act. If the opposite was true, a vigilante killing of a serial killer would not be punishable in court, but would be accepted and praised social behavior.

Counterfeiting money and counterfeiting products fall under different definitions according to the law. If that were the case, the simple ownership of a counterfeit mod would send you to jail. And I really don't see where being a vigilantly has anything to do with counterfeiting.


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[SissySpike]

So I purchased the Caravela Clone from Fastech and I really wasn't expecting too much, but for $21 for 3 tubes, what the hell! I have to say, I have been absolutely blown away by the build quality and performance from this thing! BEST $21 I've ever spent! The only problem is, I feel an inescapable sense of guilt whenever I pick the damn thing up. When they say "Clone" they really aren't kidding! My intention is not to start a, clone debate, but I just have a hard time buying something so dirt cheap with all of the original manufacturers markings all over it. It really is a shame that these things are being sold out in the open, blatantly ripping off the original designer. I can certainly afford an original Caravela, but I can't even get my name on the waiting list, let alone actually get the privilege of using one. I'm wondering if anyone else out there has purchased one of these and what your impressions might be?

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Its nice to see some one with a conscious good for you!

 

[donwuan]

Don't feel bad about not getting ripped off.

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[Rossum]

Personally, I would never buy a forgery. I'd buy a Russian 91%, but I wouldn't buy a KFL+ clone that claimed to be a Kayfun made by SvoeMesto. It's fine to make and sell a work-alike product (as long as you're not violating any patents or copyrights), but putting the original manufacturer's name and/or logo on it is just plain wrong. It's also illegal. You there's this concept called a trademark....

 

[briantodd20]

Wow! I posted this and went to bed last night, and am surprised to read all of your responses this today. I really try to avoid the, "politics" behind things like this, but I guess it really made me think once I actually received the product, not expecting much to begin with. I like what some of you mentioned about the manufacturer side of this issue. I never really considered that this could all possibly be by design for some of these companies. I guess the bottom line is; we all should just enjoy this, "era" of vaping. I cannot think of many other things that are too good to be true (A $21 Mod!) that actually are not! I have a feeling that one day we will all talk about the days of very little regulation, with new shops and products popping up all the time, and well-made clones. In a few years really crappy clones will probably sell for hundreds of dollars!


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[macpeace]

I understand the OP point of view and share it. In this case the original is not obtainable, and that does make quite a bit of difference. If it were a choice due to economics, that would make a difference. It is the cloning itself that I have an issue with...
If someone tried to pull that in the USA and the product was made here, they would be sued and criminal investigations. Why?? Because that is crap. Because they are in another country, doesn't make it a less crappy thing to do. If they had a twist of originality, if they were trying to make a better mouse trap by adding something, fine... This is straight up stealing down to the markings and logos. While I don't harass people for having clones, I do not purchase them for this reason.

 

[Royaldrunker]

More to the point, every mech is a copy of the first mech ever made, really. Just a different look / material / extra features, like floating pins and magnetic buttons.

Being a battery tube with 18000 series batteries, there basically a copy from flashlights.. The idea was already there..if theres no patent than build away.. Are we suppose to wait 6 months to a year for the high end builders to put something on the shelf and hope were one of the .5% that got one in the 10 min sale

I dont think so

 

[Ref Minor]

There is no spoon.

 

[Technohydra]

Well, let's take a different spin on this then. Our economy functions and grows by protecting the intellectual property rights of innovators. By contrast, the Chinese economy function by being good at mass producing and in competing with your rival by making the same thing they are for less money, thereby selling more units and making more profit. Just different econ models. To us, it seems like a terrible thing, but to companies in Asia, it may seem like business as usual. My only gripe still remains in passing clones off as originals. Other than that, do whatever. If you feel bad about it, don't do it again.

 

[tj99959]

Personally, I would never buy a forgery. I'd buy a Russian 91%, but I wouldn't buy a KFL+ clone that claimed to be a Kayfun made by SvoeMesto. It's fine to make and sell a work-alike product (as long as you're not violating any patents or copyrights), but putting the original manufacturer's name and/or logo on it is just plain wrong. It's also illegal. You there's this concept called a trademark....

Problem is that if the origional designer doesn't bother to copyright their graphics ........... they don't own them.

 

[Rossum]

There's nothing wrong with "being good at mass producing and in competing with your rival by making the same thing they are for less money, thereby selling more units and making more profit" -- unless you're outright stealing someone else's intellectual property, either by violating patents, copyrights, or trademarks. Unfortunately, many Chinese companies are willing to do just that and have no sense of shame about it at all. Worse yet, the Chinese government won't do anything about it. Take a look at this clip from Top Gear from a few years ago, which illustrates the problem rather succinctly: