Butyric Acid - Alternative to Diacetyl, Acetoin and Acetyl Proprionyl but Toxic by EPA?

[MotherNatural]

Excellent questions and they mirror my own. Does the diacetyl found in smoking occur naturally in the tobacco? Are there other compounds in tobacco that protect us from the diacetyl? The only cases of popcorn lung that I'm aware of come from inhaling synthetic diacetyl. None recorded in large bakery factories, cheese factories, etc. where workers are exposed to the vapor of heated natural ingredients for years or even decades.

This is true for so many other things as well. Aspirin for example. It is an isolated synthetically produced compound. It has a list of side effects including stomach upset, intestinal bleeding, etc. White willow bark contains the same salicylates used in aspirin and produces the same results (minus blood thinning) with none of the side effects. Is there another ingredient(s) in willow that protects us from those side effects? Unknown.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Linda from TFA sent me a sample bottle of their "Revised French Vanilla Deluxe" which uses the Butyric Acid in place of Acetoin & Acetyl Proprionyl. I've not had the time to mix it yet as someone decided to chop a tree down and take out our power and internet, though I plan on doing it here shortly.

I can say that side-by-side, they smell slightly different, though there's definitely not a putrid, vomit-like smell to it at all. If you did a blind smell test, you may be able to pick out which is which, but then again maybe not. The only dead giveaway for which is which is the color. The one with A-AP is yellow while the one with BA is near colorless.

I have some 4oz bottles of Capella's new flavors on the way including the Version 2 releases of:


Vanilla Custard
French Vanilla
Graham Cracker
Apple Pie
Peaches & Cream
Raspberry

...All of which had the other chemicals in them, so I'll be testing them as well.

 

[Revoultion9]

As I normally do in the early mornings, I check in with various flavor vendors to see if there's anything new an exciting on the market for me to taste test and came across a new version of Vanilla Bean Ice Cream from TFA, Vanilla Bean Gelato which is their version of VBIC without the Acetoin & Acetyl Proprionyl, though it does contain Butyric Acid which is, according to Wikipedia and their EPA sourcing, as toxic.

TFA states that it's a replacement for D-A-AP which is used in trace amounts as it could otherwise give off an unpleasant odor, which is, according to the same info on Wikipedia, is present in, and is the main distinctive smell of, human vomit

Just wondering if there are any chemistry experts happening by here that can detail more information as this is a chemical that I'm not overly familiar with and if it is indeed toxic, how toxic is it and in what amounts? I'm about to head out and I've not had the chance to look it up further just yet.

My main concern here is that with all the requests to get rid of D-A-AP, this will become more common and if it is indeed toxic, it'd be nice to make sure others know about this so that it doesn't make its way into e-liquid.


I'm not saying D-A-AP is any better, though if Butyric Acid is worse, that could be an issue.


Butyric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hi Jonathon,
I looked up the MSDS on Butyric acid and it doesn't look like its too pleasant to be inhaling. My understanding is that through inhalation it can cause chemical burns in the respiratory tract. I would direct link the MSDS page but I think my post count is too low to do so. If you would like to see it for yourself, you can go to fishersci.com, then type butyric acid in the search. This will bring up their product listing that they sell. If you click the one they have that is supplied by acros organics (3rd option,+99%) the next page will have a MSDS link with all the chemicals pertinents. Keep in mind the information there is for concentrated butyric acid but I would be apprehensive about using it.

 

[kriga]

Given we're not 100% sure how bad any of the chemicals are when it comes to vaping, since we don't have studies to prove otherwise, it's hard to say either way. It could be on the same level, "better" (in comparison, but not 100% safe obviously) or worse. It's hard to say without scientific data to say that yes, we will get B.O. from vaping X, Y or Z or, if not B.O, we'll get "this" or "that" will happen.

I think the biggest reason some are testing the waters with the chemical is that there's a growing concern over just what the "Big 3" can do, or might do long-term. We know of the potentials, given the issues with factory workers and Diacetyl, and the one incident with the guy eating popcorn for X amount of time, though beyond testing for how much is in our e-liquid, we're not yet seeing results on how much of it is actually vaporized & absorbed in to our body/blood/whatever when we inhale.

From what I've seen, anything that gives that buttery flavor that many enjoy, including benzyl alcohol (which is an aromatic), has some degree of toxicity and can be a lung and throat/nose irritant.

I see options as a good thing, though ultimately it's up to us to gauge what we feel is best for us overall. For some, this provides that extra option. It may not be the near 100% safe option we'd like, but it may be a safer option, though to what degree, I'm unsure (I'm not a chemist).

Hopefully we'll see some more data on it, or someone will find a link to some more information that I've simply not yet found .

Well stated, thanks. I guess it comes down to giving people options, so they can make their own choices. Which I agree with.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

I mixed a 10ml sample @ 8% and tested it side-by-side with the original FVD and there are noticeable differences in flavor, though nothing that I would note as being nasty or off putting. From the first vape, you'll know the A-AP is missing, there's no denying it as the rich buttery flavor is no longer present as much, though there's still the vanilla and what I would consider a slight cotton candyish note, more so than you'd get from vaping Ethyl Maltol (which is commonly referred to as a cotton candy flavor).

It's not a bad flavor, though it is different. No burning of the throat or nasty aftertaste based on the sample I have. I mention this as I know some who vape on flavors that have A-AP in them experience some burning, but I don't get that here.

Quick screenshot of a 30ml bottle of FVD Original .vs. FVD Revised (not released yet)

imgur: the simple image sharer