Cease and desisit letters to ecig suppliers?

Status
Not open for further replies.

DaDuke

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 14, 2009
202
3
Las Vegas
Has anybody read this FDA letter?
All they're saying is they want confirmation that JC's manufacturing procedures conform to fairly simple quality procedures.
Wrong, here's a direct quote form the JC letter. It begins by referring to the testimonials on the JC site which i didn't copy:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The above statements demonstrate that the Johnson Creek Smoke juice products marketed by your firm are intended both to affect the structure or function of the body and to mitigate, treat, or prevent disease. See 21 C.F.R. § 201.128 (describing the meaning of "intended use"). In particular, these statements suggest that these products are intended for use as smoking deterrents or to reduce dependence on traditional tobacco products, and are also capable of delivering nicotine. The scientific and medical communities have determined that nicotine is a pharmacological agent,1 that nicotine addiction is a disease,2 and that nicotine withdrawal is itself a recognized medical condition.3 It is well understood that people smoke for the pharmacologically rewarding effects of nicotine, such as alleviation of stress and negative mood, enhancement of thinking, and increased alertness.4 For an addicted smoker, the body has adapted to nicotine, and abstinence produces withdrawal and craving.5 As a result, people also smoke to avoid the negative effects of nicotine withdrawal, such as anxiety, difficulty concentrating, negative mood, increased appetite, insomnia and irritability.6 Therefore, the claims noted above demonstrate that the Johnson Creek Smoke juice products are intended to affect the structure or function of the body and to mitigate, treat, or prevent disease.

Also, as to "fairly simple quality procedures"... Ummm, no, they would be required to maintain a clean room and all other regulations that large drug manufacturers must comply with. While some level of inspections would be a good thing, maybe something similar to food service inspections for cleanliness and proper handling procedures, etc. Only the larger established businesses and corporations can afford to comply to the myriad of drug production regulations which "quality control" is one of the smallest expenses. Clean rooms for repackaging, certified chemists for production, years of expensive clinical trials on animals then on humans before your product can even be considered for marketing approval and FDA certification and so on and so on.

That will kill the "above ground" cottage industry of eliquid suppliers and postpone any liquid on the market for at least 5-10 years with a vast increase in cost to consumers IF it ever gets funded by a corp and actually approved.

As described in 21 C.F.R. § 310.544, any product that bears labeling claims that it "helps stop or reduce the cigarette urge," "helps stop or reduce smoking," or similar claims is a smoking deterrent drug product.7 Products that are labeled, represented, or promoted as smoking deterrents, such as the Johnson Creek Smoke Juice products marketed by your firm, are regarded as "new drugs"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you read that quote you'll see the testimonials were the grounds the FDA cited as the reason the JC juice is being classified as a "new drug". That then opens them up to a lot of regs regarding drugs which is under the authority of the FDA which includes quality control standards. It's not the JC current quality control standards that empower the FDA to make this move, it's merely one of the regs that JC now falls under since their posted testimonials puts their product under a "new drug" classification.

Also, as far as "conform to fairly simple quality procedures"... while quality control standards for drug production is expensive, it is also one of the least expensive regulations placed on "new drugs" prdouction. Years of wildly expensive clinical trials on animals and then humans are required prior to a drugs approval and then there's quality control, clean rooms, certified chemists, to mention a few things that make it so only large corps can produce "new drugs".

This would kill the cottage industry and remove availablilty for at least 5-10 years. IF a corp decides to invest in legalizing ecigs with FDA approval, you can bet they will be far more expensive then they are now, with only a minimaly lowered risk benefit to consumers.
 
Last edited:

Drozd

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Nov 7, 2009
4,156
789
49
NW Ohio
Has anybody read this FDA letter?
All they're saying is they want confirmation that JC's manufacturing procedures conform to fairly simple quality procedures.
Just like restaurant preparations.
I hate to admit it, but that can't hurt us vapors. The tobacco was bad enough.

the issue with JC is compounded by the fact that they are FDA registered....yet failed an inspection:

From JC:
FDA Information

Johnson Creek Enterprises, LLC is fully registered with the U.S. Food & Drug Administration pursuant to Section 305 of the United States Public Health and Bioterrorism Act of 2002, P.L. 107-188

What does this mean? It does not mean we are "FDA Approved." The FDA has not yet made a determination on whether or not it will regulate the e-smoking industry, nor what those regulations might be. Johnson Creek Enterprises, LLC facilities and operations are FDA Registered. The law now requires that all companies who produce products for human consumption, must register their facility and operations with the FDA. Further, all information pertaining to a company's address and nature of business must be current with FDA at all times.
Being FDA Registered assures our accounts, customers and the public that Johnson Creek Enterprises, LLC is a fully disclosed company with the federal government.
Being FDA Registered does not imply that Johnson Creek Enterprises is a pharmaceutical company or that its products have been approved or certified by FDA. Being FDA Registered does mean that Johnson Creek Enterprises, LLC places public safety and well being as our top priority.

now being that the claims / customer testimonials push it into the realm of NRT and thus a drug...this part was part of the letter they got:
Additionally, during our September 1-25, 2009, inspection of your manufacturing facility, Johnson Creek Enterprises, LLC, located at 320 N. Watertown Street, Suite F, Johnson Creek, Wisconsin, investigator(s) from the FDA identified significant violations of Current Good Manufacturing Practice (cGMP) regulations for Finished Pharmaceuticals, Title 21, Code of Federal Regulations, Parts 210 and 211. These violations cause your drug product(s), as described above, to be adulterated within the meaning of section 501(a)(2)(B) of the Act (21 U.S.C. § 351 (a)(2)(B)) in that the methods used in, or the facilities or controls used for, their manufacture, processing, packing, or holding do not conform to, or are not operated or administered in conformity with, cGMP. Specific violations observed during the inspection include, but are not limited, to the following:

CGMP Violations

Your firm has not established a quality control unit having the responsibility and authority to approve and reject all components, drug product containers, closure, in-process materials, packaging materials, labeling and drug products, and the authority to review production records to assure that no errors have occurred (21 C.F.R. § 211.22(a)). For example, your firm has not established a quality control unit. Personnel with quality control unit responsibility have not been designated.

1. Your firm does not test each batch of drug product to determine conformance with final specifications (21 C.F.R. § 211.165(a)). Specifically, your firm does not test each batch of drug product prior to release.

2. Your firm has not established written procedures designed to prevent microbiological contamination of drug products not required to be sterile (21 C.F.R. § 211.1 13(a)). For example, your firm has not set microbial limits for your firm's oral liquid drug products, nor have you demonstrated preservative effectiveness.

3. Your firm has not conducted specific identification testing when components are accepted based on the supplier's report of analysis (21 C.F.R. § 211.84(d)(2)). For example, your firm accepts a Certificate of Analysis (COA) from the supplier of components. However, your firm does not conduct identity testing on your components or appropriate verification of the supplier's test results.

4. Your firm does not have a written testing program designed to assess the stability characteristics of drug products in order to determine appropriate storage conditions and expirations dates (21 C.F.R. § 211.166(a)). For example, your firm does not have a stability testing program for your firm's components and finished drug products.

5. Your firm's drug products do not bear an expiration date determined by appropriate stability data to ensure they meet applicable standards of identity, strength, quality and purity at the time of use (21 C.F.R. § 211.137(a)). For example, your firm does not have the stability data to support expiration dating for these products.

so I'm not by any means in support of the FDA.....but these companies were trying to dance around the devil and they got burned....
 

TheLordWinter

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Aug 29, 2010
224
154
Detroit, MI
so I'm not by any means in support of the FDA.....but these companies were trying to dance around the devil and they got burned....

Yeap, and as far as I'm concerned, they got what they deserved. What a foolish and reckless move on their part. There's a court battle going on to prevent e-cigs and e-juice from being classified as a drug device and it's accompanying drug, and these retailers played right into the FDA's hand with this stunt.
 

maxx

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jan 23, 2010
1,269
3
PA, USA
www.omnimaxx.com
I'm not sure that there will ever be a long-term study on the safety of e-cigs....which the FDA wants and requires. Not sure you can even do one. Nearly all medical professionals will tell you that the effects of smoking on the body can take decades to go away. Someone who quit smoking ten years ago and gets lung cancer tomorrow, will still be a smoking related illness by the standards used these days. Here's the catch-22...

The FDA requires testing to prove both safety and effectiveness. To do this, they need to do their study on smokers. Can't prove that e-cigs are an alternative or cessation method by testing on non-smokers, right? So your test subjects are all smokers...that have already increased their chances of getting lung disease, and they will be that way for a long time. Run your safety tests and a few people in the test groups get lung disease. How would anyone know whether it was the liquid in e-cigs, or the cigarettes from the previous years? There is alot of room for manipulation at the end when the results are in and researchers try to assign cause for any illnesses that popped up during testing. Further, unless you lock up all your subjects in a sterile, climate-controlled building for several years, you cannot completely elliminate other environmental conditions. In short....take 300 smokers and put them on e-cigs for a year or two. In the end, 5 or 6 developed lung disease. The question is....what caused it. The e-cigs? The past smoking? The dirty air in their neighborhood? Bad luck?
 

jtcaseyjr

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 9, 2010
270
7
Oak Harbor, WA
I'm not sure that there will ever be a long-term study on the safety of e-cigs....which the FDA wants and requires. Not sure you can even do one. Nearly all medical professionals will tell you that the effects of smoking on the body can take decades to go away. Someone who quit smoking ten years ago and gets lung cancer tomorrow, will still be a smoking related illness by the standards used these days. Here's the catch-22...

The FDA requires testing to prove both safety and effectiveness. To do this, they need to do their study on smokers. Can't prove that e-cigs are an alternative or cessation method by testing on non-smokers, right? So your test subjects are all smokers...that have already increased their chances of getting lung disease, and they will be that way for a long time. Run your safety tests and a few people in the test groups get lung disease. How would anyone know whether it was the liquid in e-cigs, or the cigarettes from the previous years? There is alot of room for manipulation at the end when the results are in and researchers try to assign cause for any illnesses that popped up during testing. Further, unless you lock up all your subjects in a sterile, climate-controlled building for several years, you cannot completely elliminate other environmental conditions. In short....take 300 smokers and put them on e-cigs for a year or two. In the end, 5 or 6 developed lung disease. The question is....what caused it. The e-cigs? The past smoking? The dirty air in their neighborhood? Bad luck?

Excellent points. I just do not see why the FDA needs to be in this. I understand the E-cig industry needs some tweaking, but the FDA is not the government enity I would trust to do that as look at some of the drugs they have approved that have killed or hurt people, after years of so-called study. That and to let cigarettes remain which is a KNOWN killer, well that blows my mind.
 

Reyth

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Aug 19, 2010
131
5
USA
V4L didn't get letters (at least according to all of this info), neither did 99% of the other e-cig related vendors. Only 5 companies
Well pretty much all that matters is that JC got one -- they have the best facilities of any of them and if they are forced to stop producing then no other vendor has a chance.

EDIT: Although I see that I may be missing a subtle point about marketing claims -- but I really think that is just a red herring anyway; the end justifies the means.
 
Last edited:

DaDuke

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 14, 2009
202
3
Las Vegas
@ maxx: eliquid could be tested in the same manner that was accepted for patches and gums so it's far from impossible. Just wildly prohibitive in light of the expense and the fact that there are profitable products on the market already which has already went through this process to compete for potential investors money.

BTW: has anyone ever seen documented images of any suppliers facilities? Always curious as to the conditions most suppliers operate under.
 

krazie_Kid

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 10, 2010
1,965
354
36
Long Island
www.vapor4life.com
It is in E-Cig news and everywhere else on the board. Some of our fellow V4Ler's don't cruise the rest of the board and this post is in the right place as it can affect V4L as well as Steve's customers.

I am one of those ones that do not go anywhere besides here, I am crusing through the comments here, and shocked to not see Steve or Marks inputs... That worries me...
 

DaDuke

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 14, 2009
202
3
Las Vegas
Actually i wanted to see any images or vids on american liquid suppliers facilities. I already knew most if not all chinese factories were full blown commercial grade clean rooms. I have been wondering if ANY of the american suppliers are anything but garage or converted bedroom operations. I would figure a company like JC which is well established and producing in large quantities have by now scaled up to a commercial facility but those are probably few and even then i doubt they're in certified clean rooms. Also, JC and the other few large ones didn't start out that way i would wager. I would wager the vast majority are producing under conditions that wouldn't even meet food service codes.
 

SMILIN

Moved On
ECF Veteran
Sep 21, 2008
3,624
314
CHITOWN USA
www.vapor4life.com




Just so you know, we just tripled our size, and are working on improving customer service, quality of merchandise, and of course, Never misrepresenting Any of our product. I will personally be in China next month, after the National holidya's, and start wrl on creating a new factory, exclusively, for V4L. We will provide you with exact info, as to what is in all products, as well as working on USA Clinical Trials, so you will know, without a doubt, what you are getting. I use probably more of V4L products than anybody, and I am certainly concerned what goes into my body, very much.

We will have a lot to look forard too.

Thank you V4L family

Enjoy

Steve:glare:
 

CartHeadMod

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Jan 17, 2010
640
12
73
Holland, Michigan
In the case of food products the FDA has a "Small Business Exemption"
After May 8, 1997 the exemption will apply to those firms of fewer than 100 full-time employees that sell fewer than 100,000 units of a particular food in any 12 month period.
there are similar exemptions for "micro breweries".....
I wonder why the same would not be true for eliquid?.........
 

Reyth

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Aug 19, 2010
131
5
USA




Just so you know, we just tripled our size, and are working on improving customer service, quality of merchandise, and of course, Never misrepresenting Any of our product. I will personally be in China next month, after the National holidya's, and start wrl on creating a new factory, exclusively, for V4L. We will provide you with exact info, as to what is in all products, as well as working on USA Clinical Trials, so you will know, without a doubt, what you are getting. I use probably more of V4L products than anybody, and I am certainly concerned what goes into my body, very much.

We will have a lot to look forard too.

Thank you V4L family

Enjoy

Steve:glare:
Thank you for this post and your concern for the vaping community.
 

poisonette

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 1, 2010
212
2
Ohio
I think I figured out the FDA's problem. Our PV's provide nicotine at various levels, even from hit to hit according to their e-cig FAQ page. To them, that fact makes PV's as bad as analogs in their eyes as drug delivery systems.
Nicotine Replacement Therapy is designed to only curb withdraw symptoms. Most NRT provides very low nic 2-4mg over a period of time. Those of us using 36mg or more aren't really benefiting if we're trying to use this to quit smoking. The FDA has a NRT Medicine Guide giving info on how much nic the NRT's provide.

So, as long as our beloved suppliers and us as reviewers do not talk about using these as NRT to quit smoking, we should be ok for a little while.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread