Charging my Batteries 'N Stuff

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Completely Average

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alien Traveler" data-source="post: 16186153" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">
alien Traveler said:
It was said in relation to elevated temperatures and to storage. I am still thinking...

This link I would not consider as reliable. Vapers have too many old vaper's stories.

To put it in the most simple terms, heat damages batteries. The hotter the battery is, the more damage will be done to it.

Charging a battery heats the battery up. Using the battery in an ecig also generates heat. The more amperage that is drawn from the battery the more it heats up. When combining a battery that's already heated from charging with even more heat from using it (Especially with high amp draw) you're doubling the damage done. It is possible in certain circumstances to cause the battery to fail. That's not just a vape story, just look at some of the temperatures Mooch lists in some of his tests and imagine applying the maximum safe load to a battery that's already hot from charging.

And this is true for ANY type of rechargable battery, not just the ones we use in our ecig. For example, Apple warns against recharging iPhones and even the new iWatch while they are in certain protective cases because of the heat generated and then retained within the case during charging.

Charging your device when it’s inside certain styles of cases may generate excess heat, which can affect battery capacity. If you notice that your device gets hot when you charge it, take it out of its case first. For Apple Watch Edition models, make sure the cover of the magnetic charging case is off.

Apple - Batteries - Maximizing Performance

Heat damages batteries. After charging you should always allow the battery to return to room temperature before using it to prevent any excessive heating of the battery.
 

speedy_r6

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Do you know what "discharing them all the way" means?

It means dropping the battery to 2.5V. There isn't a regulated mod on the market that will let you fully discharge the battery.

3.6V is the "nominal" voltage. This is the voltage that the battery spends most of it's time at under normal use.

You're not going to hurt the batteries by charging them at 3.7-3.6V, but you aren't saving them either, and you're not using them nearly as long as they can be safely used between charging cycles.

I know what full discharge means. I also know that if I am storing the batteries for a while, it is damn convenient to pop them out of the mod when they are around 3.6-3.7v and not have to worry about charging them up to a storage voltage. Since I cycle a lot of batteries, they often spend a short while at storage voltages. In some cases, they can spend up to a month in storage.

And, to be fair, I AM saving them to a small extent when I am taking them out at a higher voltage. If I am running 130 watts in my sig 150, I am drawing 24.24 amps from the batteries when they are at 3.3 volts. If they are at 3.7 volts, I am only pulling 17.5 amps. That is a major difference. In a few charge cycles, it may be nothing noticeable. Over the life of the battery, it can end up being a noticeable difference. Even the VTC series of batteries generate a significant amount of heat internally when you are running them around 25 amps. This heat damages the cell. Sure, doing it a few times may not make a difference. Doing it repeatedly will. Therefore, when I am changing them out before they are being forced to push that extra power out, I am in turn helping the battery last longer.

Also, as the cell ages, the battery performance declines. Taking it out at a higher voltage gives an added safety buffer as the cell ages and loses its ability to perform like new. When it is new, it may be able to handle those 24 amp pulls. When it is starting to age, that 24 amp pull may be too much and cause it to vent. I don't know about you, but I would rather not have a battery vent in my mod.
 

Completely Average

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And, to be fair, I AM saving them to a small extent when I am taking them out at a higher voltage. If I am running 130 watts in my sig 150, I am drawing 24.24 amps from the batteries when they are at 3.3 volts. If they are at 3.7 volts, I am only pulling 17.5 amps.

You're wrong. Your calculations are wrong, and I don't think you understand how the Sig 150W works at all.

The Sig 150W (And ALL 100+W mods) are SERIES mods. Two or more batteries are run in a series. In a dual battery mod that means the voltage is DOUBLED. So when your batteries are at 3.3V each they are supplying 6.6V to the mod.

Second, the Sig 150W and ALL regulated mods have a Boost Converter built in to them. Many also have a Buck Converter as well, including the Sig 150W, but for the sake of this discussion we will only worry about the Boost Converter. The Boost Converter uses a capacitor to Step Up the Voltage. That means the mod is capable of delivering a higher voltage than the batteries can supply by themselves. This is the very foundation of Voltage Regulation and is what makes every regulated mod work. So, if you need 8.4V (Two 4.2V batteries in series) to run at 150W then the mod can deliver 8.4V to the atomizer regardless of the batteries being at 4.2V or 3.3V.

That means your amps are NOT radically changing as the battery drains. The battery supplies what voltage it can and the mod boosts that to the voltage it needs. As long as the batteries are capable of providing the minimum voltage to the mod it will still run at 150W and won't increase the amp draw from the batteries because it's the Boost Converter supplying the coil with the voltage, not the batteries.


Your math doesn't even work in mech mods, because to hit 150W with two 4.2V batteries you need a .47ohm coil, but if the batteries drop in voltage so will the wattage as long as the coil remains at the same resistance.
 

Mooch

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    You're wrong. Your calculations are wrong, and I don't think you understand how the Sig 150W works at all.

    The Sig 150W (And ALL 100+W mods) are SERIES mods. Two or more batteries are run in a series. In a dual battery mod that means the voltage is DOUBLED. So when your batteries are at 3.3V each they are supplying 6.6V to the mod.

    Second, the Sig 150W and ALL regulated mods have a Boost Converter built in to them. Many also have a Buck Converter as well, including the Sig 150W, but for the sake of this discussion we will only worry about the Boost Converter. The Boost Converter uses a capacitor to Step Up the Voltage. That means the mod is capable of delivering a higher voltage than the batteries can supply by themselves. This is the very foundation of Voltage Regulation and is what makes every regulated mod work. So, if you need 8.4V (Two 4.2V batteries in series) to run at 150W then the mod can deliver 8.4V to the atomizer regardless of the batteries being at 4.2V or 3.3V.

    That means your amps are NOT radically changing as the battery drains. The battery supplies what voltage it can and the mod boosts that to the voltage it needs. As long as the batteries are capable of providing the minimum voltage to the mod it will still run at 150W and won't increase the amp draw from the batteries because it's the Boost Converter supplying the coil with the voltage, not the batteries.


    Your math doesn't even work in mech mods, because to hit 150W with two 4.2V batteries you need a .47ohm coil, but if the batteries drop in voltage so will the wattage as long as the coil remains at the same resistance.

    You do get a decent change in the amount of current drawn from the batteries at higher power levels though. At 150W in VW mode with two 4.2V batteries there's about 17.9A flowing. But with the batteries down to 3.4V (don't know the cutoff in that mod) about 22A is being drawn. Up to 25A if the batteries are allowed to drop to 3.0V.

    [edit] this is assuming that the regulator/converter is 100% efficient...it isn't. The actual current draw from the batteries will be even higher.
     
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    speedy_r6

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    In your own words, you're wrong.

    Second, the Sig 150W and ALL regulated mods have a Boost Converter built in to them.

    The sig 150 does NOT have a boost chip/converter. It uses a chip that is buck down only. You are wrong on that aspect. If you try running batteries that are at 6.6v in series at a wattage you need in excess of 6.6v on the sig 150, it is going to give you a low battery error, not boost it up to the voltage you need.

    Many also have a Buck Converter as well, including the Sig 150W, but for the sake of this discussion we will only worry about the Boost Converter. The Boost Converter uses a capacitor to Step Up the Voltage.

    Since the sig 150 doesn't have a boost controller at all, we can go ahead and chalk that up to being wrong in this mod.

    The Sig 150W (And ALL 100+W mods) are SERIES mods. Two or more batteries are run in a series. In a dual battery mod that means the voltage is DOUBLED. So when your batteries are at 3.3V each they are supplying 6.6V to the mod.

    Next, I am aware that the sig 150 is a series mod. Even if it were parallel, it would still be drawing the same amperage from each battery, though. 130w at 6.6v is 19.7 amps. Since the batteries are in series, that is the amperage being drawn from each battery. If they were parallel at 3.3v each and using a boost converter to get to 130w, you would be drawing 3.3v at 39.4 amps. Since that would be in parallel, that would be split evenly across the batteries. Since there are 2 batteries, you can divide it by 2. 39.4 divided by 2 is...19.7 amps per cell.

    To get 130 watts out of a pair of batteries in series that are putting out a total voltage of 6.6 volts, you need 20 amps after inefficiency. I made the mistake of using 160w in my earlier calculations, which gave me the 24 amp number. I accidentally hit a 6 instead of a 3. At 7.4 volts, it is about 18 amps. Maybe not a drastic difference to you, but it can be enough over the life of the cell to shorten its life, especially if the battery is starting to get old.

    Lastly, since the sig 150 doesn't do boost, the wattage still has to come from somewhere. Since watts = volts * amps, those calculations apply. If you are wanting 150 watts and your batteries are only putting out 6.6 volts combined, you are pulling 22.72 amps before any inefficiency in the mod is calculated in. When you are pulling 150 watts at 7.4v, you are pulling 20.27 amps before any inefficiency in the mod is calculated in. That excess amp draw can be damaging to the cells.
     
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    Completely Average

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    In your own words, you're wrong.
    The sig 150 does NOT have a boost chip/converter. It uses an SX330 chip that is buck down only. You are wrong on that aspect. If you try running batteries that are at 6.6v in series at a wattage you need in excess of 6.6v on the sig 150, it is going to give you a low battery error, not boost it up to the voltage you need.

    You are correct in regards to the Sig, but if we're going to be totally accurate about just the Sig then let's also point out that it's maximum voltage is just 7V and that means that the Sig 150W can only safely hit 150W if you are using an extremely narrow range of atomizers. .17ohm to .327ohms. Any higher than .33ohms and you can't hit 150W no matter what you do. It requires too much voltage. Any lower than .17ohms and you're going to damage the batteries no matter what batteries you have since the amperage will exceed 30A.





    Next, I am aware that the sig 150 is a series mod. Even if it were parallel, it would still be drawing the same amperage from each battery, though. 130w at 6.6v is 19.7 amps. Since the batteries are in series, that is the amperage being drawn from each battery. If they were parallel at 3.3v each and using a boost converter to get to 130w, you would be drawing 3.3v at 39.4 amps. Since that would be in parallel, that would be split evenly across the batteries. Since there are 2 batteries, you can divide it by 2. 39.4 divided by 2 is...19.7 amps per cell.

    To get 130 watts out of a pair of batteries in series that are putting out a total voltage of 6.6 volts, you need 20 amps after inefficiency. I made the mistake of using 160w in my earlier calculations, which gave me the 24 amp number. I accidentally hit a 6 instead of a 3. At 7.4 volts, it is about 18 amps. Maybe not a drastic difference to you, but it can be enough over the life of the cell to shorten its life, especially if the battery is starting to get old.

    Lastly, since the sig 150 doesn't do boost, the wattage still has to come from somewhere. Since watts = volts * amps, those calculations apply. If you are wanting 150 watts and your batteries are only putting out 6.6 volts combined, you are pulling 22.72 amps before any inefficiency in the mod is calculated in. When you are pulling 150 watts at 7.4v, you are pulling 20.27 amps before any inefficiency in the mod is calculated in. That excess amp draw can be damaging to the cells.

    You're making a basic mistake here. You're trying to calculate watts based on amp and voltage alone without taking resistance into account. While that is possible if resistance isn't a factor, in an ecig resistance is ALWAYS a factor.

    For example, if you want to try to apply that 150W to a 2ohm coil you're going to need 17V. That's going to be pretty hard to do if your mod doesn't boost voltage, don't you agree? As I said before, you can't go any higher than .327ohms with a full battery charge, which will be bucked to the 7V maximum of the chip and the amp draw will be 21.41A. As soon as the voltage drops to 6.9V the wattage drops as well. It cannot deliver 150W to the .327ohm coil without boosting the voltage which as you said, the Sig cannot do. That means that the wattage drops and the amp draw is also REDUCED. The more the battery voltage drops the more the amps drop, because you cannot push 150W through that .327ohm coil without boosting the voltage.

    On the flip side, let's say you're using that minimum safe resistance .17ohm coil. You can run it until the battery indicator says the batteries are fully drained because the voltage required to run that coil at 150W is just 5V and the chip needs a minimum of 6.2V just to operate. So it's never going to go over the 30A drain that it requires from the batteries, regardless of what the battery charge is.


    So, the only way you're ever going to get over 30A drain on a set of batteries is to run an atomizer with the ohms so low and wattage so high that you're going to damage the batteries even with the best 30A batteries on the market at full charge.

    At no time does the act of draining the batteries increase the amp load. If the combined battery voltage drops below 7V then the wattage and amp load will drop as well. It's impossible to maintain the wattage if the voltage drops and atomizer resistance remains the same, and it is impossible to increase the amp draw if both voltage and wattage have dropped.
     
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    speedy_r6

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    You are correct in regards to the Sig, but if we're going to be totally accurate about just the Sig then let's also point out that it's maximum voltage is just 7V and that means that the Sig 150W can only safely hit 150W if you are using an extremely narrow range of atomizers. .17ohm to .327ohms. Any higher than .33ohms and you can't hit 150W no matter what you do. It requires too much voltage. Any lower than .17ohms and you're going to damage the batteries no matter what batteries you have since the amperage will exceed 30A.

    The sig 150 can actually go to 7.5, so it lets you run at about 0.375 ohms if I remember right. If you want to be able to do the full 150w through the full charge cycle the mod allows(batteries down to 6.4v in series), you will have to build between 0.1 ohm(the minimum the mod will fire) and 0.27 ohms(6.4v output is the maximum it can put out when the batteries are at their cutoff, and that will give you 150w on a 0.27 ohm coil)

    You're making a basic mistake here. You're trying to calculate watts based on amp and voltage alone without taking resistance into account. While that is possible if resistance isn't a factor, in an ecig resistance is ALWAYS a factor.

    Resistance matters most on a mech mod. On a regulated mod, there are essentially two circuits, making resistance much less of a factor. The first is the input circuit between the battery and the chip. This is where it is going to draw the volts you are putting out at the amps you need to get the wattage you desire. The second circuit is the output circuit between the chip and the atomizer. This is where it is going to apply the proper voltage for the resistance of the coil to be operating at the desired wattage. The batteries never see the resistance of the atomizer. They are just putting out the wattage needed. The only time the coil resistance comes into play on a regulated mod is if it is within the operating parameters of the device, and if it is low enough to be able to output enough voltage to get the wattage you want. It wouldn't be an incredibly dumb idea, but since the circuits are separate, you could technically run 5amp CDR batteries in the thing with a 0.1 ohm coil if you are using very low wattage(under 30w). This would absolutely destroy the batteries in any mod where they were directly connected to the coil, but it won't in a regulated mod, because they never see the resistance of the coil. They just put out the amps needed at their current voltage to hit the desired wattage. At 20 watts, they would still only be running at 3.125 amps at 6.4v(the cutoff voltage). I would never suggest someone to try that, though. As soon as you try cranking the wattage up, the I specifically use my 20 amp batteries in it when I know I am going to run low wattage, because I know there is no harm in it. They never see the 0.1 ohm resistance, and when I am only running 50 or 60 watts, I am far below the 20 amp discharge they are rated at. This brings us into the next part of what you are saying:

    For example, if you want to try to apply that 150W to a 2ohm coil you're going to need 17V. That's going to be pretty hard to do if your mod doesn't boost voltage, don't you agree? As I said before, you can't go any higher than .327ohms with a full battery charge, which will be bucked to the 7V maximum of the chip and the amp draw will be 21.41A. As soon as the voltage drops to 6.9V the wattage drops as well. It cannot deliver 150W to the .327ohm coil without boosting the voltage which as you said, the Sig cannot do. That means that the wattage drops and the amp draw is also REDUCED. The more the battery voltage drops the more the amps drop, because you cannot push 150W through that .327ohm coil without boosting the voltage.

    On the flip side, let's say you're using that minimum safe resistance .17ohm coil. You can run it until the battery indicator says the batteries are fully drained because the voltage required to run that coil at 150W is just 5V and the chip needs a minimum of 6.2V just to operate. So it's never going to go over the 30A drain that it requires from the batteries, regardless of what the battery charge is.

    Yo are right that you can't hit 150w with a 2 ohm coil. However, if you build a 0.2 ohm coil(within the safe parameters of the device), you can hit 150w throughout the entire range of the battery charge. This brings us to the next part:

    So, the only way you're ever going to get over 30A drain on a set of batteries is to run an atomizer with the ohms so low and wattage so high that you're going to damage the batteries even with the best 30A batteries on the market at full charge.

    You won't be able to go over 30 amps on the batteries, period. Even at 6.4v, at 30 amps, you would be putting out in excess of 180w.

    At no time does the act of draining the batteries increase the amp load. If the combined battery voltage drops below 7V then the wattage and amp load will drop as well. It's impossible to maintain the wattage if the voltage drops and atomizer resistance remains the same, and it is impossible to increase the amp draw if both voltage and wattage have dropped.

    As the battery voltage drops, the amp draw MUST increase to maintain the same wattage. If you build a 0.2 ohm coil, it can hit 150w from the full 8.4v the batteries put out all the way down to the cutoff of 6.4v. To hit 150 watts, it is going to have to draw however many volts the batteries are at a certain number of amps. At 8 volts(4v per cell), the batteries are each having to put out 18.75 amps. At 6.4 volts(the cutoff voltage of 3.2v per cell), the batteries are still going to have to put out enough amperage to hit 150 watts, meaning they are going to be putting out 23.4375 amps each. In this case, the amperage most certainly will increase as the voltage decreases. This holds true even with a 1 ohm coil running at 15 watts. At 8 volts, they will be putting out 8 volts at 1.875 amps. At 6.4 volts, they will be putting out 6.4 volts at 2.34 amps. Obviously, this low of an amp draw is no issue for the batteries.

    Even the VTC series of batteries that everyone thinks of as 30 amp batteries are under a lot of strain after 20 amps. Mooch's tests clearly show this. If you are drawing 23.5 amps or more after the inefficiency of the mod, you are likely shortening the life of the battery more than you are when you are pulling the 21 amps from the battery when they are at 3.6v each.
     

    Baditude

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    This statement from our resident battery expert and ECF forum administrator, @rolygate :

    "Rest batteries after charging
    One commonly-reported factor in almost all the incidents we hear of where batteries failed violently while in use is that they were taken directly off the charger and then used immediately, at which point they failed.

    Because of this, we think it may be a good idea to rest batteries after charging them. This advice will not be found in the usual 'reference bibles' on batteries, but we see more and different reports than others. Therefore we now advise:

    Do not use batteries directly after charging them. Use a battery or batteries you previously charged, and that have rested for several hours. This is especially important if using a stacked pair for higher voltage, as statistically the risk is far higher.
    Rechargeable Batteries
     
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    suprtrkr

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    I never have figured out the "something from nothing" craze. Mods don't work like that. If it's putting power on the atty, it's getting the power from the batteries, and it's getting it at whatever voltage the batteries are supplying due to their charge state; and thus drawing on those batteries at whatever current level is required to make the necessary watts at that voltage. There really isn't any way around that...
     
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    rolygate

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    Wanted to point out that I'm just someone who's used a variety of low-voltage DC systems for a very long time, and has seen a lot of info on lithium cell failures in the last few years. Not really a battery expert, although you pick up a lot of info over the years. Interested in the way battery technology improves and the way we get more out of them. Also the risks inherent in obtaining maximum performance. If they burn up Dreamliner battery packs even with a budget of millions, it's fair to say we don't know all the answers.
     
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