Class Action Exploding Devices

[Shekinahsgroom]

1. Clarification of what the definition of a manufacturer means and how it pertains to registration.
This really is the only "question" though most of us know the answer.
2. Clarification of DIY importing.
Whoever you purchased it from is the manufacturer/retailer.
3. Clarification of DIY manufacturing; both juice and devices.
Same as #1
4. Clarification of DIY labeling.
If the bottle is only used by you, no one else cares what is on it.
5. Clarification of DIY distribution.
Distribution is distribution, if you distribute it, it's no longer personal use.
6. Clarification of DIY underage.
If you are old enough to buy the individual supplies, you are old enough to mix and use them. The "regulation" aspect of this would come from the nicotine. Whoever you buy nicotine from is the manufacturer/retailer.
7. Clarification of DIY exporting.
Same as distribution, if you give/sell it to anyone else, it is no longer personal use.

What is your answer for a 16 yr old kid that has debit card in his/her name and is buying everything from overseas?

No age requirement for purchasing and other countries are not subject to our laws.

The regulations are not clear on manufacturing, everything else follows behind it.
Distribution needs to be clarified since there's no definition of someone else obtaining what a DIY person made.
Obviously you cannot sell it, but if you're not a manufacturer and you're not registered....then how do they intend on regulating a product that may not be regulating from the start?

 

[Shekinahsgroom]

Do you know what retail means?

Of course, do you know what domestic establishment means?

Or did we forget?

"every person who owns or operates any domestic establishments engaged in the manufacture,preparation, compounding, or processing of a regulated tobacco product"

 

[Lessifer]

What is your answer for a 16 yr old kid that has debit card in his/her name and is buying everything from overseas?

No age requirement for purchasing and other countries are not subject to our laws.

The regulations are not clear on manufacturing, everything else follows behind it.
Distribution needs to be clarified since there's no definition of someone else obtaining what a DIY person made.
Obviously you cannot sell it, but if you're not a manufacturer and you're not registered....then how do they intend on regulating a product that may not be regulating from the start?

Retailers in other countries are not subject to our laws UNLESS they sell their products within our borders. They may not be caught every time, but the law does still apply.

As for distribution, it is clear, if you sell or otherwise provide something to another person, that is distribution. Being the victim of theft is not distribution as you did not give it to the other person.

Of course, do you know what domestic establishment means?

• Domestic establishment: The term domestic establishment means an establishment in any State or Territory or possession of the United States.
• Establishment: The term establishment means a place of business under one ownership at one general physical location. A single building may house more than one distinct establishment if the establishments are under separate ownership.
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/Labeling/RulesRegulationsGuidance/UCM191940.pdf

 

[Shekinahsgroom]

What some of you may have overlooked, we're all on the same team.

We all want the same results, but I want proof that DIY isn't regulated....and ATM, we don't have any.

Less and I can quote the TCA all day long and we'll wind up back where I started the topic.

There are far too many unanswered questions and a crapload of contradicting regulations.

 

[Lessifer]

What some of you may have overlooked, we're all on the same team.

We all want the same results, but I want proof that DIY isn't regulated....and ATM, we don't have any.

Less and I can quote the TCA all day long and we'll wind up back where I started the topic.

There are far too many unanswered questions and a crapload of contradicting regulations.

The way the FDA will regulate DIY, is the same way they regulate RYO, by regulating the manufacture and distribution of the supplies. They don't have to go after a person mixing their own liquid for personal use, all they'd have to do is make nic base unavailable to consumers.

 

[KODIAK (TM)]

Distribution needs to be clarified since there's no definition of someone else obtaining what a DIY person made.

I don't understand your confusion. If you distribute what you make it's no longer considered personal consumption. (I think Less said this).

I'd have to look into other vices the government has attempted to regulate... like making homemade wine grown from grapes in your backyard... or growing tobacco plants for personal use, etc.

 

[Shekinahsgroom]

Retailers in other countries are not subject to our laws UNLESS they sell their products within our borders. They may not be caught every time, but the law does still apply.

But that's the point Less, most are not selling products within our borders.
Joyetech is an example that could be regulated since they have offices here.
Fasttech does not and is not required to follow our laws.

 

[Lessifer]

But that's the point Less, most are not selling products within our borders.
Joyetech is an example that could be regulated since they have offices here.
Fasttech does not and is not required to follow our laws.

Okay, let me attempt to explain internet commerce to you. If you, the purchaser, live in the united states, and they are sending the product to you, in the united states, that is distribution within the united states. If that distribution is against federal regulations, customs can seize the package.

 

[Shekinahsgroom]

I don't understand your confusion. If you distribute what you make it's no longer considered personal consumption. (I think Less said this).

Distribution isn't just you handing something to someone else, it also includes someone else getting a hold of whatever you made, whether you're aware of it or not.

(Theft, trash, whatever...)

If DIY isn't regulated, anybody could make up whatever they wanted on how they obtained it, even if it was given to you by someone else. Since the FDA has no record of the product then they cannot trace it back to it's source.

 

[Shekinahsgroom]

Okay, let me attempt to explain internet commerce to you. If you, the purchaser, live in the united states, and they are sending the product to you, in the united states, that is distribution within the united states. If that distribution is against federal regulations, customs can seize the package.

But how will they know Less if you're not registered?
Your statement sounds reasonable though I haven't seen the actual law...I'll just take your word for it.

The primary point that I'm getting at is how does the FDA intend on controlling DIY? This area opens up Pandora's Box and could murder FDA regulations altogether if it's exposed.

THIS IS OUR MISSION...as a whole.

 

[Lessifer]

Distribution isn't just you handing something to someone else, it also includes someone else getting a hold of whatever you made, whether you're aware of it or not.

(Theft, trash, whatever...)

Commercial distribution: The term commercial distribution means any distribution of a tobacco product to consumers or to another person through sale or otherwise, but does not include internal or interplant transfer of a tobacco product between registered establishments within the same parent, subsidiary, and/or affiliate company, nor does it include providing a tobacco product for product testing where such products are not made available for consumption or resale. For example, the term includes the distribution of a tobacco product as a promotional sample and the delivery of a tobacco product to another manufacturer for further processing via contract without a change in the formal ownership of the product.

Theft, disposal, whatever, is not distribution.

 

[Lessifer]

But how will they know Less if you're not registered?
Your statement sounds reasonable though I haven't seen the actual law...I'll just take your word for it.

The primary point that I'm getting at is how does the FDA intend on controlling DIY? This area opens up Pandora's Box and could murder FDA regulations altogether if it's exposed.

THIS IS OUR MISSION...as a whole.

You're not getting the point, you don't register, the person selling the product registers. That's why there is a registration avenue for international retailers, and domestic importers(people who resell what they buy from other countries).

They'll control DIY by restricting the sale of nicotine liquid, include high concentration nicotine liquid. Unless a company gets an approved PMTA for nic base by 2018, they will no longer be able to legally sell it in the US.

 

[KODIAK (TM)]

The primary point that I'm getting at is what does the FDA intend on controlling DIY? This area opens up Pandora's Box and could murder FDA regulations altogether if it's exposed.

I don't share your epiphany. Of course the politics and people behind most regulations would like to purge DIY and all of vaping from existence. Just like they would guns, ammo and pointy sticks.

Thankfully, our Constitution has a few teeth left.

 

[Shekinahsgroom]

• Domestic establishment: The term domestic establishment means an establishment in any State or Territory or possession of the United States.
• Establishment: The term establishment means a place of business under one ownership at one general physical location. A single building may house more than one distinct establishment if the establishments are under separate ownership.
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/Labeling/RulesRegulationsGuidance/UCM191940.pdf

Just on what you posted....

Domestic establishment could mean a home-based business, correct?

Now we're back to the example that I gave earlier that confused you.

"Let's try another perspective Less.
If someone wanted to open a shop out of their home with the intent to sell their products, they'd have to register with the FDA. But let's say that they don't register and start building/mixing products....but never sell a thing. You're trying to prove that everything that this guy made is perfectly legal....since they weren't sold to anyone. And because they weren't sold to anyone, then there's no need to register."

The example here was, what's to stop any home-based business from not registering until they're successful?
If they never actually sell a thing, then everything that they made could be considered DIY.

What would prevent a domestic establishment from circumventing the law from the start?

It's examples like this one that the FDA need to clear up.

 

[Lessifer]

Just on what you posted....

Domestic establishment could mean a home-based business, correct?

Now we're back to the example that I gave earlier that confused you.

"Let's try another perspective Less.
If someone wanted to open a shop out of their home with the intent to sell their products, they'd have to register with the FDA. But let's say that they don't register and start building/mixing products....but never sell a thing. You're trying to prove that everything that this guy made is perfectly legal....since they weren't sold to anyone. And because they weren't sold to anyone, then there's no need to register."

The example here was, what's to stop any home-based business from not registering until they're successful?
If they never actually sell a thing, then everything that they made could be considered DIY.

What would prevent a domestic establishment from circumventing the law from the start?

It's examples like this one that the FDA need to clear up.

Yes, if your aim is to circumvent the law. You can legally mix as much liquid as you want, as long as you never distribute it. However, before you do distribute any of it, you would need to register and have an approved PMTA for any product you intend to sell.

How would a business be successful if they never sell anything. If they sell anything before they're registered, or without approval, they've broken the law and are subject to enforcement.

What is the point of your example?

 

[Shekinahsgroom]

You're not getting the point, you don't register, the person selling the product registers. That's why there is a registration avenue for international retailers, and domestic importers(people who resell what they buy from other countries).

They'll control DIY by restricting the sale of nicotine liquid, include high concentration nicotine liquid. Unless a company gets an approved PMTA for nic base by 2018, they will no longer be able to legally sell it in the US.

I understand fully, Less...but I think that you're missing my point.
Fasttech won't ask you if you're a commercial operator or a consumer, only a factory would.
So unless a factory is exporting goods, distributors will sell whatever you want to whomever they wish and everything will pass through the border....including anything ordered by underage users.

 

[Lessifer]

I understand fully, Less...but I think that you're missing my point.
Fasttech won't ask you if you're a commercial operator or a consumer, only a factory would.
So unless a factory is exporting goods, distributors will sell whatever you want to whomever they wish and everything will pass through the border....including anything ordered by underage users.

And you're missing the point that in this example Fasttech is the distributor, you are the consumer. If they are selling directly to consumers, they would be the one responsible for registering as a manufacturer and having approved PMTAs for their product. If they are found selling their product to American consumers unlawfully, their products can be seized by customs.

 

[Shekinahsgroom]

Yes, if your aim is to circumvent the law. You can legally mix as much liquid as you want, as long as you never distribute it. However, before you do distribute any of it, you would need to register and have an approved PMTA for any product you intend to sell.

How would a business be successful if they never sell anything. If they sell anything before they're registered, or without approval, they've broken the law and are subject to enforcement.

What is the point of your example?

But that's just it Less, the FDA can't prove intent unless you tell them by registering as a manufacturer.
This is where the regulations have left giant holes and no answers.
DIY cracks open these regs and flushes them in the toilet....

 

[Lessifer]

But that's just it Less, the FDA can't prove intent unless you tell them by registering as a manufacturer.
This is where the regulations have left giant holes and no answers.
DIY cracks open these regs and flushes them in the toilet....

In your example, intent doesn't matter. If you never distribute, there's nothing to regulate, it's all personal use.

 

[Shekinahsgroom]

And you're missing the point that in this example Fasttech is the distributor, you are the consumer. If they are selling directly to consumers, they would be the one responsible for registering as a manufacturer and having approved PMTAs for their product. If they are found selling their product to American consumers unlawfully, their products can be seized by customs.

Well, I guess we'll see what happens in August 2018....that's the deadline, right?