Cloned Reo??!

[InTheClouds]

1. I own a REO. I own other mods. Some of them clones.

2. It was more of a general statement towards patents, then specifically aimed at clones. Clones "innovate" on price point. People that want authentic will buy it regardless of price, people that don't want to break their wallets will buy whatever works. It's a huge market. Saving lives is a big thing in the ecig community. Should people who use clones not "have their lives saved", because they can't/won't pay $200 for a mod? When there could be a similar one available for $30? If mod makers really don't like clones, why don't they use Chinese manufactures to make " marked or somehow identified", worse quality, but cheaper mods for their own businesses? I guarantee the majority of clone buyers would rather buy their clone directly from the mod maker then take their chances on fasttech or ebay.

Patents hold back innovation because a design oversight can't be fixed and then produced by another designer. It can lead to the "If it ain't completely broke, don't fix it" mentality, that can stall progress. Or just simply because your not obligated to do anything with your patent, and a really great idea can be wasted.

I played competitive paintball a number of years ago, and there was a company called "Smart Parts". Anyways, this company decided to patent the electronic switch that was used in all paintball markers. They went after one of the smaller, but better, marker makers (AKALMP) for patent infringement. After a lengthy battle, AKALMP lost, and still does not make markers. The owner just services the ones that were already made. The ensuing PR about this basically started the collapse of "Smart parts". They were labeled "Nazis" by the paintball community, and were basically blacklisted to everyone in the know. The company is now defunct. This story is relevant because it shows that A) even if you win a patent battle, you may still lose. B) Something similar could happen to us. What if someone patented and enforced, for the sake of this argument, the 510 connection. You don't see how that could stall progress?

3.Again, was speaking towards patents in general. Not clones. Sorry for not being more clear.

I also get the ethical part of it, but when you consider that some mod makers exploit the supply and demand system that makes the world go round, I lose a bit of empathy. Considering most mods are just metal tubes with different engravings and switches, isn't everyone pretty much copying everyone else?

Not trying to start a war at all, but does anyone know how much it costs Rob to make a REO or Woodvil? Honestly curious to that. I get overhead and cost of equipment, curious as to actual cost and time to make. I also understand if he doesn't want to share that information.

Look, I'm definitely playing a bit of devils advocate, I understand the need to protect your wallet, but you guys were ready to burn him at the stake. Just trying to put things in perspective a bit.

It's late, sorry for the possibly incoherent rant.

First of all, there is a thread in the REOS forum that shows the evolution of the REOS since Rob 1st began. Rob is meticulous, you won't receive anything less than a perfect, well made product unless you buy a blemished one, or a second hand one. He has spent considerable time improving his product, experimenting with paints, determining what is most durable. He does his best to make available to his customers what they are asking for, like the upcoming sub-ohm kit, milling an RBA to fit, etc. When you consider all that has been put into the product, $144 is extremely reasonable and the customer service superb. There are clones of other mods out there that are more expensive than a brand new REOS.

Secondly, I owned three ProVari's, sold two of them to buy REOS. You might ask why, both make a durable quality product, ProVape has excellent customer service, but not the personal touch we get from Rob. There are several reasons, the Reo community is the friendliest, most helpful group I have found on all of ECF. We love our REOS, but I have not seen anyone be elitist, or condescending to someone who chooses to use another mod, or decide the REOS is not for them. The durability beats anything else I have used, the ease of use and not having to fiddle constantly is stellar. The only time I have seen anyone be snarky here is if they believe someone is profiting unreasonably, or in defense of Rob.

We are loyal to Rob, Rob is loyal to us. The quality of product and customer service we have is a rare commodity in such a disposable society.

I have no problem with you being the Devil's advocate, I will continue to be happy Reonaut.

 

[deviousprostate]

First of all, there is a thread in the REOS forum that shows the evolution of the REOS since Rob 1st began. Rob is meticulous, you won't receive anything less than a perfect, well made product unless you buy a blemished one, or a second hand one. He has spent considerable time improving his product, experimenting with paints, determining what is most durable. He does his best to make available to his customers what they are asking for, like the upcoming sub-ohm kit, milling an RBA to fit, etc. When you consider all that has been put into the product, $144 is extremely reasonable and the customer service superb. There are clones of other mods out there that are more expensive than a brand new REOS.

Secondly, I owned three ProVari's, sold two of them to buy REOS. You might ask why, both make a durable quality product, ProVape has excellent customer service, but not the personal touch we get from Rob. There are several reasons, the Reo community is the friendliest, most helpful group I have found on all of ECF. We love our REOS, but I have not seen anyone be elitist, or condescending to someone who chooses to use another mod, or decide the REOS is not for them. The durability beats anything else I have used, the ease of use and not having to fiddle constantly is stellar. The only time I have seen anyone be snarky here is if they believe someone is profiting unreasonably, or in defense of Rob.

We are loyal to Rob, Rob is loyal to us. The quality of product and customer service we have is a rare commodity in such a disposable society.

I have no problem with you being the Devil's advocate, I will continue to be happy Reonaut.

How long has the REO been out? 5 years? Sub-ohm springs are still not available. Not exactly my idea of constant perfection, you know, with a major design flaw thats been neglected for years. Or using a dial for VV with no LCD? Or just the board itself? It's outdated and not worthy of being in a $200 mod. Hardly perfect. Perfection doesn't need revision.

Being blindly loyal to someone who's sole purpose in your relationship is to take your money, is irrational. The man owns a business. He's not looking out for your best interests, he's looking out for himself.... and that's how it should be.

I also missed the relation to patents and clones.

I love REOs. Really, I do. I've given Rob about $500+ at this point. I'm also not delusional enough to think of him as a God. Yes, he puts out a quality product and I personally love it. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Does Rob have great customer service? Yes. Is he the only one? No. I've had great customer service from Ebay sellers selling clones. Seriously. Bought an Origin/Aqua clone of Ebay, the mod was missing the delrin insulator on the switch. I contacted him, and he sent the part out that day. No questions.

 

[solace.discord]

How long has the REO been out? 5 years? Sub-ohm springs are still not available. Not exactly my idea of constant perfection, you know, with a major design flaw thats been neglected for years. Or using a dial for VV with no LCD? Or just the board itself? It's outdated and not worthy of being in a $200 mod. Hardly perfect. Perfection doesn't need revision.

Being blindly loyal to someone who's sole purpose in your relationship is to take your money, is irrational. The man owns a business. He's not looking out for your best interests, he's looking out for himself.... and that's how it should be.

I also missed the relation to patents and clones.

I love REOs. Really, I do. I've given Rob about $500+ at this point. I'm also not delusional enough to think of him as a God. Yes, he puts out a quality product and I personally love it. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Does Rob have great customer service? Yes. Is he the only one? No. I've had great customer service from Ebay sellers selling clones. Seriously. Bought an Origin/Aqua clone of Ebay, the mod was missing the delrin insulator on the switch. I contacted him, and he sent the part out that day. No questions.

and this ^^^ is your opinion, which I feel is irrational.

 

[deviousprostate]

and this ^^^ is your opinion, which I feel is irrational.

How much of that is even opinion? The fact I think you guys are a little too overzealous about Rob? Yes, that's my opinion. It being irrational to hand over your money blindly, for the sake of loyalty, is a fact. It has nothing to do with ecigs or mods. It's true with people who only buy Apple products, for example. There's no rational thinking about the phones being better or cheaper or even simpler to use, it has to do with the "status" that an iphone brings.

I think I made a solid point, saying "Well, that's just like, your opinion, man." is a pretty poor counter argument.

Incase someone doesn't get the reference...

 

[Funk Dracula]

I think I made a solid point, saying "Well, that's just like, your opinion, man." is a pretty poor counter argument.

Incase someone doesn't get the reference...

I don't know much about machining and manufacturing, but I'd guess that milling a Reo out of a raw billet of metal is a lot more expensive than sticking a tube on a lathe, threading it, and laser etching some design on it.

A plastic Reo for $60? Good grief....

There are other bottom feeders out there for competition, not just the VMOD. There's the Puzzlebox, the Sunbox, a couple of boutique people selling bottom feeders one small batch at a time. Guess what? Everything out there, except for the VMOD, is more expensive than a Reo Grand. A lot more expensive, actually.

The Reo Grand is not a "demand is larger than supply" designer mod either. I don't see the success in trying to 1:1 clone it, the exploitation opportunity doesn't seem to be there.

I don't think Rob is a god, or gives a crap about my best interests personally. However, I do think he's just a cool dude, who runs a small company, that makes a bad ... mod at a reasonable price. That's good enough for my repeat business. No blind devotion here, just throwing my benjamins where I see fit.

 

[ltrainer]

What you said is obviously your opinion and thats fine to voice it. No problem there as far as I'm concerned. We can continue to split hairs here. One thing I know is that this thread isn't going to go anywhere as far as changing anyones opinion. Its just going to get personal and degenerate with each side(s) defending their position. Nothing is going to be resolved. People can feel what they want to feel and its no skin off anyones back. No ones getting hurt here. I go my way, you go yours. But I am not going to continue to beat this dead horse. As far as I'm concerned since the arguments have been stated and nothings moved one iota either way, I am done with this thread and I wish others would put it to rest too.

 

[Filthy-Beast]

Patents hold back innovation

Completely disagree. Cloning holds back innovation. We just spent several years and over 10 million in R&D to release a product that has several patents. If someone clones it we're not likely to waste the R&D money and time again. Typically our product concept gets copied, but it takes a year or two and is changed enough not to infringe, but that requires R&D, skill and money. Many times they do make some changes for the better, but they do it legally. By the time the copied concept comes out we're well on our way to the next new thing.

 

[deviousprostate]

Completely disagree. Cloning holds back innovation. We just spent several years and over 10 million in R&D to release a product that has several patents. If someone clones it we're not likely to waste the R&D money and time again. Typically our product concept gets copied, but it takes a year or two and is changed enough not to infringe, but that requires R&D, skill and money. Many times they do make some changes for the better, but they do it legally. By the time the copied concept comes out we're well on our way to the next new thing.

Can I ask what it is? It'll help me with my response. Is this a personal invention/company? Or are you a part of a larger company? How much of your price tag will be R&D cost? How long was the patent process, and how much did it end up costing you or your company?

 

[canoeist]

I am not to worried folks lets keep it civil

Add me to the not worried club. I am thinking about moving to Maine to save on shipping charges

 

[ric23]

We are loyal to Rob, Rob is loyal to us. The quality of product and customer service we have is a rare commodity in such a disposable society.

I just wanted to put emphasis on this. Plus, I don't even think you have to be a loyal/follower/exclusive follower or whatever for Rob to be loyal to you. You own 1 or 24, and you have Robs loyalty and customer service. This is very rare in today's world and what lured and made me stay as a reo user.

 

[Filthy-Beast]

Can I ask what it is? It'll help me with my response. Is this a personal invention/company? Or are you a part of a larger company? How much of your price tag will be R&D cost? How long was the patent process, and how much did it end up costing you or your company?

Well I wish I had millions to personally invest in R&D. I'm part of a very large company. It's a high tech piece of equipment and price is around 10,000 and customers buy multiples. We are the big dog, number supplier in our product category with many competitors.

 

[Rossum]

I've given Rob about $500+ at this point.

And in exchange, he gave you products that you valued MORE than the $500 you spent. If this were not the case, the exchange would not have taken place.

 

[Un5tab1e]

I apologize for starting this thread. In no way, shape or form did I intend it to become an argument. I just wanted my Reo family to see. It's a dead end argument and there is no right or wrong answer. It's Rob's patent and he isn't concerned. Please close this Lisa. Thanks

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk

 

[thinkingaboutit]

Being blindly loyal to someone who's sole purpose in your relationship is to take your money, is irrational. The man owns a business. He's not looking out for your best interests, he's looking out for himself.... and that's how it should be.

There is not blind loyalty from me. I've watched him support user error, problems, anything. The level of service is unmatched. Perfection, maybe not...but he does listen and respond. How many vendors are all over that? With no need he saw the sub ohm crowd gaining momentum, and started spending money to make his mods better. He has said when the kits come, he will retrofit current inventory. Who does that? It's a loss for him.

Rob could ignore us, promote more and make more money, easily. He could spend his time and money making the reo cheaper to sell more. Most would not know. Most would be happy with a $100 reo that lasted a year not knowing there was a $144 reo that lasted forever. Most of his customers would not know the difference if he had sub ohm kits or not. The way he runs things is important to me, but also important is how well the product works for me.

 

[muzichead]

How long has the REO been out? 5 years? Sub-ohm springs are still not available. Not exactly my idea of constant perfection, you know, with a major design flaw thats been neglected for years.

I'm not exactly sure on this, but sub-ohm has only been a big thing now for about 10-12 months so far and it is only .6Ω and below that is affected on the device!!! How is that being neglected for years?

 

[deviousprostate]

Well I wish I had millions to personally invest in R&D. I'm part of a very large company. It's a high tech piece of equipment and price is around 10,000 and customers buy multiples. We are the big dog, number supplier in our product category with many competitors.

I'm assuming this isn't a "product for the public". I've been speaking from a consumer POV, not another business owner. I understand hospitals/military/etc want the latest and greatest, regardless of cost.

I guess I should ask cost to make then. Just curious to how much the choice to drop $10 mil on R&D and patents, effects me, the consumer. Also curious to how the time and money spent on patents would equate to skipping the process to keep costs down and continually making alterations (based on customer feedback) to stay in front of the "copy cat" pack. Simply, how would/do both choices affect the bottom line? Honestly, I'm curious.

As a consumer I see R&D costs as not my problem. If you want to recoup your R&D money through high retail pricing, that's fine with me. I'll just stay away and wait for the clone or "legal knock off" to come out. I know I'm not alone in this. PCs in the 80s-90's.

I work hard for my money, I don't feel the need to pay for the time that was spent drinking coffee and shooting the ...., that's now labeled as R&D. I'm aware there is actual work that gets done, but I've also worked in a office.

IMO Fear and greed power patents. Congratulations, you had an original idea! Now you're afraid someone else will make money on your idea. Competition is the greatest part of our economy.

I apologize for starting this thread. In no way, shape or form did I intend it to become an argument. I just wanted my Reo family to see. It's a dead end argument and there is no right or wrong answer. It's Rob's patent and he isn't concerned. Please close this Lisa. Thanks

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk

It's honestly just a discussion. I am the only one not taking this personally? This is an internet forum. I would be shocked and appalled if my "not the norm" stance was accepted with open arms.

And in exchange, he gave you products that you valued MORE than the $500 you spent. If this were not the case, the exchange would not have taken place.

Irrelevant? At no point was I trashing REOs, just constructive criticism. They aren't perfect. I'm also not exactly a poster child for managing money...

There is not blind loyalty from me. I've watched him support user error, problems, anything. The level of service is unmatched. Perfection, maybe not...but he does listen and respond. How many vendors are all over that? With no need he saw the sub ohm crowd gaining momentum, and started spending money to make his mods better. He has said when the kits come, he will retrofit current inventory. Who does that? It's a loss for him.

Rob could ignore us, promote more and make more money, easily. He could spend his time and money making the reo cheaper to sell more. Most would not know. Most would be happy with a $100 reo that lasted a year not knowing there was a $144 reo that lasted forever. Most of his customers would not know the difference if he had sub ohm kits or not. The way he runs things is important to me, but also important is how well the product works for me.

A lot of vendors. I've had plenty of great experiences with ecig vendors. Only one notably bad one.

How many juice companies change their flavors or recipes based on customer feedback? It's alot.

He should retrofit his old stock, which is what? The 10 mods he has at any particular time? Huge expense.

Why doesn't he offer a cheaper chinese REO alongside the real REO? My guess is he knows what he has works for him, and isn't worried about the competition. People that buy a $30 REO were never going to buy a $150 REO in the first place.

I'm not exactly sure on this, but sub-ohm has only been a big thing now for about 10-12 months so far and it is only .6Ω and below that is affected on the device!!! How is that being neglected for years?

It's a spring that's designed to fail. I get the safety concern, but it's caused way more problems than it's helped. People shouldn't be using a mechanical mod if they can't use it safely anyways. Just some natural selection going on.


Just sayin, but someone of these posts give credit to the "delusional cult" label given to this sub forum.

 

[Un5tab1e]

Delusional Cult? Because we found what we liked and stuck to it and support it? Most of us sold provari's and other high end items because a Reo is what worked for us. Show me a better bottom feeder that I can drop, submerge or run over and it still work and I'll probably try it.. BTW Rob we are out of magic Kool-Aid

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk

 

[redeyedancer]

Come on guys cant you see deviousprostate loves this its a game to this person . The more you fight him the more enjoyment he gets from getting a rise out of you .