Cloning Milk and Honey

[matrix961]

This is what I’ve come up with just playing around not having my other ingredients yet. I decided to make my own banana cream since this is one thing I’m waiting on. So this is what I’ve come up with just with what I have on hand now. Just thought it would be fun.

DIY Banana Cream: 10ml
FW Banana 1.00ml
CAP Vanilla Custard 0.70ml
TFA Bavarian Cream 0.70ml
TFA French Vanilla 0.50ml
PG 7.10ml

TFA Diluted Honey: 10ml, Thanks to ckquatt for the idea
TFA Honey 1.00ml
PG 9.0ml

Milk & Honey:
DIY Banana Cream 10.0%
TFA Vanilla Custard 4.0%
FW Vanilla Butternut 3.3%
TFA Diluted Honey 3.3%
TFA Cheesecake, Graham 3.3%
TFA Vanilla Swirl 2.0%

It’s not like the original but smells similar. Just missing that creamy peanut butter smell I get with the original. With this it’s more like a light honey nut. The funny thing is that when vaping it, it reminds me of actual milk and honey that you would mix up and drink (I could be going crazy tho, taste buds might need a break ). Well reminds me of it more than original M&H anyways which in no way reminds me of milk and honey but it’s damn good LOL.

My missing ingredients arrive tomorrow so it will definitely be an interesting day.

 

[C4M3120N]

@ ckquatt, “BTW! I feel like the guy wearing a hat in a dark parking garage giving up secrets! LOL!” Haha, well all you need now is a long trench coat and a briefcase. For the record, I absolutely love the insulated travel mug steeping method, brilliant advice as always, lol!

I finally just received the rest of the flavors I’ve been wanting to try out today, including the highly anticipated FW Honey and FW Captain Crunch. First impressions are that FW Honey smells a lot like TFA Honey to me and none of these flavors are clear. FW Captain Crunch is actually pretty dark like TFA Honey and smells similar to FW Graham Cracker without any sweetener added. So with the news that true 0mg M&H is practically clear, I’ve almost completely lost faith that DallasTxEnt’s reddit recipe is going to be any good. I’m still going to mix it up and try it in a month but at this point, I’m not expecting good results, maybe it will surprise me, who knows.

On a positive note though, I also ordered some FW and TFA Cotton Candy, both are clear as water and while they do smell incredibly similar, TFA smells a little sweeter but each of them definitely seem like a familiar smell when smelling true M&H and FW Cotton Candy smells like the best choice. So I’m definitely going to start adding it into my test mixes.

 

[DrLucky]

My FW order just arrived! Not sure what mixes I will try yet.

I'll update when I figure out what I want to mix.
Also, if anyone wants to throw a (FW) recipe my way, I'll give it a go!

EDIT:
Ok, I decided based on educated guesses to mix up this, I went to 20% total flavoring as I'm still nervous about 30% flavor range. I've also learned from experience that less is more in many cases, but I'm not ruling it out.

v1 4/2/15
Peanut Butter (FW) 5%
Banana Split (FW) 4%
Marshmallow (FW) 3%
Graham Cracker (FW) 6%
Cotton Candy (FW) 1.5%
Buttered Popcorn (FW) 0.5%

 

[matrix961]

Thats not good news about the color of cpt crunch and honey from FW. However the cpt crunch could need diluted like the honey. In my experiments the diluted honey in small amounts gives flavor and keeps the mix clear. Have to see how powerful the crunch is for dilution. Although we cant have too many dark colors even diluted or the mix will begin to get color.

My dang order didnt show today, freakin usps

Should be tomorrow. The TFA peanut butter and cotton candy is in this order which are more important for me since the peanut butter is what i smell the most in the oringinal. Ill probably just start with the recipe i posted above replacing butternut with peanut butter and adding cotton candy at 1%. I have the day off tomorrow so it will be perfect for mixing.

Also anyone with tfa peanut butter, does it even smell like creamy peanut butter? Never had this so i can only go by what i read in reviews.

 

[ckquatt]

Thats not good news about the color of cpt crunch and honey from FW. However the cpt crunch could need diluted like the honey. In my experiments the diluted honey in small amounts gives flavor and keeps the mix clear. Have to see how powerful the crunch is for dilution. Although we cant have too many dark colors even diluted or the mix will begin to get color.

My dang order didnt show today, freakin usps [emoji14]

Should be tomorrow. The TFA peanut butter and cotton candy is in this order which are more important for me since the peanut butter is what i smell the most in the oringinal. Ill probably just start with the recipe i posted above replacing butternut with peanut butter and adding cotton candy at 1%. I have the day off tomorrow so it will be perfect for mixing.

Also anyone with tfa peanut butter, does it even smell like creamy peanut butter? Never had this so i can only go by what i read in reviews.

How did the honey/mix end up tasting in the recipe? Did it work?

 

[matrix961]

How did the honey/mix end up tasting in the recipe? Did it work?

It absolutely worked!!! It adds flavor no problem. I even went as low as 2.65% from 3.3% and can still taste it although very light. Im liking it more at 2.65% even.

 

[ckquatt]

It absolutely worked!!! It adds flavor no problem. I even went as low as 2.65% from 3.3% and can still taste it although very light. Im liking it more at 2.65% even.

Good! I'm glad I could help!

 

[C4M3120N]

For the official closest attempt record keeper, lol. I started testing my 15 test batches and my test batch #4 is the closest I have personally come to M&H. It's actually really good too, surprisingly it's also the best e-liquid I have personally ever made, lol. I'm going to try tweaking it a little bit with some very low %'ages of FW Peanut Butter and FW Cotton Candy, though it's already really good as is. Anyway I thought I would share it with you all because I do personally honestly feel that it is pretty close, not exact but pretty close! Though, like matrix961, I think my sense of smell and tastes buds have been a little overloaded over the last week so don't quote me on "pretty close", lol. None of my other test batches even came close to M&H.

Flavor West Graham Cracker 8%
Flavor West Marshmallow 4%
Flavor West Banana Split 3%

I know, it's almost to simple, lol. I let this batch breath (with cap off) for twelve hours directly after mixing, then I let it steep (with cap on) for a week. Definitely more steeping would make it better, as most always the case with many E-Liquids.

DrLucky, your latest attempt is really close to my latest test batch #4.2, it's speed steeping now.

Graham Cracker (FW) 7%
Marshmallow (FW) 3%
Banana Split (FW) 3%
Peanut Butter (FW) 1%
Cotton Candy (FW) 1%

From my test batch #4.2, I took 1% away from FW Marshmallow and replaced that 1% w/ FW Cotton Candy because I think they will blend well and compliment each other well. I also took away 1% of FW Graham Cracker and replaced that 1% with FW Peanut Butter (because test batch #4 was made before you gave me the Peanut Butter advice). I'm just trying to make subtle changes to my test batch #4 because I really liked it. Though perhaps for test batch #4.3 I might try upping the Banana Split %'age because true M&H has a much more defined Banana? note to it than either of my test #4 batches. I also might try replacing half of the Banana Split %'age with TFA Banana Cream.

Looking at your v1 4/2/15 test batch specs, I can already tell you that FW Peanut Butter at 5% is probably to high for a recipe in the 15-20% flavor range. Through my own tests, anything over 2% Peanut Butter in that flavor range creates to much of a dominating Peanut Butter flavor. Of course that statement is in reference to making a M&H clone and based upon my own experiences. I also like that you tried adding something new into the mix, the Buttered Popcorn, though I have tried Buttered Popcorn flavors before and didn't really care for them. I am however extremely excited that you are now experimenting with Flavor West flavors now too! After testing my test batch #4, I'm starting to feel a lot more confident in the Flavor West theory.

@ matrix961, neither FW or TFA Peanut Butter's remind me of a creamy/sweet peanut butter. Tastes and smells more like chewing up a bunch of unsalted peanuts, lol.

 

[matrix961]

I'm hesitant now about using honey at all in the recipe after vaping more of the original. Even at the low amounts I've tested with, my mix does have a nice light honey note to it, very slight but just enough. I just don't smell it in the original, or taste it. You know I wouldn't be surprised if the original is just banana cream, peanut butter, & cotton candy, and maybe some marshmallow. I might just try this when I get my order tomorrow.

The honey works well in the mix I did and does add a nice light honey flavor. But I want the original LOL which I might just start calling Banana Milk & Peanut Butter.

I might just try this similiar to C4M3120N: I'm also going to go light on the ingredients as well since the original seems light.

Banana Cream (Since FW gave me banana instead of banana split, it's ok tho I made my own banana cream )
Peanut Butter
Marshmallow
Cotton Candy

 

[C4M3120N]

I think that sounds like a very good idea! I'm definitely starting to think that Banana or Banana Cream is a part of the M&H recipe.

If I could make a couple of suggestions, I think you should also be using some Graham Cracker in your mix as well as I am also fairly certain that is also another part of M&H. In my last batch of 15% percent total flavoring, Graham Cracker at 7% was to strong and so was Peanut Butter at 1%.

I'm currently mixing up a similar batch myself as I type this, with exactly all the same ingredients as you, with the addition of 4% Graham Cracker and 2% Banana Split.

I also am starting to get the same feeling you are, that 0% of any Honey is actually used in M&H.

 

[C4M3120N]

Ok, so I'm not really sure if I am a fan of speed steeping, lol. I guess it works alright but I personally don't feel that it is better than steeping with time. I can see where speed steeping is certainly useful in testing out new batches though to get a ballpark figure where your at. In my defense though, I have read that speed steeping with heat (typically) causes the nicotine to degrade faster and quite possibly flavoring as well. I think I will definitely continue to use this method to test out new batches and if it tastes good, make a second batch to time steep.

With all that out of the way, my sense of smell and my taste buds are definitely fried at the moment, lol, so I could be wrong but with speed steeping I made up the following recipe and I think/feel like I am getting pretty close to M&H and I could really use a second opinion for anyone who has the following flavors:

M&H Test Batch #4.3

Graham Cracker (FW) 4%
Banana Cream (TFA) 3.5%
Marshmallow (FW) 3%
Cotton Candy (FW) 2%
Banana Split (FW) 2% (I'm also thinking of trying to take this out and add an extra 2% of Banana Cream)
Peanut Butter (FW) 0.5%

I just made a little 6ml batch to test but I think I'm going to try and make a little bigger one to let naturally steep for a week two. Anyway, I'm calling it a day for today, lol, I will continue the quest tomorrow and see how I'm feeling about this one tomorrow.

 

[DrLucky]

Speed steep batch just came out of the crock pot.
You're right, it's definitely not as good as time steeping, but it's a way to get a rough estimate of where a batch is.

Unfortunately this batch is absolutely horrendous. Probably the worst thing I've ever mixed up...
Don't try it! Haha
I can't even get an idea of what's over powering what. I may try adding a base of PG/VG/NIC and bring the total percentage of flavor down to 15% but I don't think that will even make it vapable. At least ingredients are cheap haha

It's late, so I will elaborate on my findings and more tomorrow sometime.

 

[matrix961]

Got my stuff today, by mid morning even.

This is what I've come up with. I spent over an hour just testing the banana cream I made and the one from TFA. For me personally I had to use the one I made since the banana seemed much smoother and a bit more ripe if that makes sense. After mixing up some tests I've come up with what I think is pretty much dead on for me. I'll give myself a few days to test a bottle and steep the other 2 I made. But damn comparing to the original, vaping on separate RDA's I can't tell a real difference. Again I think it will be best to test over a few days tho.

DIY Banana Cream: 10ml (I adjusted this a bit slightly lowering the banana)
FW Banana 0.90ml
CAP Vanilla Custard 0.70ml
TFA Bavarian Cream 0.70ml
TFA French Vanilla 0.50ml
PG 7.20ml

Milk & Honey:
DIY Banana Cream - 5.3%
TFA Peanut Butter - 3.3%
TFA Cheesecake, Graham Crust - 2.0% (I don't have graham clear so this had to do. Not sure what the difference is tho.)
TFA Cotton Candy - 2.0%
FW Marshmallow - 1.3% (I imagine you can use TFA as well)

I also used PG to bring it down to the consistency of the original as well.

Well see...

Edit: Ok so unfortunately i think its time to take a break, my taste buds need a good rest. Not touching the recipe for at least a few days. I increased it slightly so ill just leave it like this for now.

 

[C4M3120N]

Well, that sounds incredibly promising! Your enthusiasm over it is definitely exciting! A naturally steeped test will definitely be the defining moment, so I'm happy to hear your performing that test as well.

I have every single ingredient to complete your test batch except for CAP Vanilla Custard. I have both FW Vanilla Custard and TFA Vanilla Custard and I was wondering if you had either of those to compare to your CAP Vanilla Custard?

I'm really liking your DIY Banana Cream experiment, with the Vanilla's and Bavarian Cream in it, I think those little hints and notes of flavor in the way your trying to do it could be really promising, as your now discovering.

I'm a little concerned about the high %'age of Peanut Butter in your ~12% total flavoring. To me it seems like it would be to overpowering. I would have also imagined more Cotton Candy and Marshmallow would need to be added. I do like that your going for a different twist on the Graham Cracker with the Cheesecake Graham Crust. I tried that particular flavor in one of my mixes myself, but with the other ingredients I had, I was way off. These concerns are of course completely trivial if you have indeed made an acceptable M&H clone! I'm going to wait to see if you have any advice on which Vanilla Custard I should try, before I try making this test batch myself.

Testing my speed steeped test batch #4.3 today along with the original, with fresh taste buds today, I was not as close as I had hoped, so I'm leaving the rest of that batch to steep for another week or two before testing it again.

Also @ 0mg Cosmic Fog being absolutely completely clear, it isn't, it's pretty close but it definitely has a very slight yellow tinge to it. I just ordered 3 bottles of it from ecigexpress the other day along with 3 bottles of 12mg to mix them down to 6mg with the 0mg because they don't sell or were out of 6mg.

On a complete separate topic, I also just got my Eleaf iStick 30w today and I absolutely love it! I have been using mechanical mods, which I still like but I now see that being able to tweak the wattage is definitely the better option. I also was surprised at how small and comfortable it is!

 

[C4M3120N]

Hey ckquatt, I was wondering if you would be interested in sharing your The Lost Arts Beez Kneez recipe?

 

[ckquatt]

Just a thought. I wonder if the clear 0mg thing may be limiting your options. When you buy a bottle of 0mg, how long does it remain clear? As it ages does it darken?

you've mentioned it a few times and I was sitting here thinking, they go through gallons of flavoring at a time so of course their flavorings are fresh and crystal clear. I think not including an ingredient, not because of flavor profile, but because of their color might be a small part of the issue.

I pulled a couple of flavors out of my DIY flavor toolbox. They were clear to almost clear when I bought them but over a time they changed colors. (Clear is second from left for comparison)

I could be way off base but it's just something that I've been thinking about the past couple of days. Dont limit yourself in flavor choices because of the color, because they will change over time.

Does any of that make any sense? LOL!

 

[C4M3120N]

I really like and appreciate that you took the time to point this out ckquatt. It absolutely makes perfect sense and I completely agree with your assessment. I have also noticed that once clear flavorings will also darken over time. Light, time and temperature definitely add color. I actually have noticed this in several of my flavorings. For example, I recently just restocked up on some TFA Vanilla Swirl, my older bottle is easily six months old and is clearly a golden brown in color while my brand new bottle is perfectly clear. And I really like your pointing out that the end color shouldn't be all that important, it's the flavor we're really trying to match, not the color. I wouldn't even care if my final M&H clone was Pluid green, lol.

 

[ckquatt]

I really like and appreciate that you took the time to point this out ckquatt. It absolutely makes perfect sense and I completely agree with your assessment. I have also noticed that once clear flavorings will also darken over time. Light, time and temperature definitely add color. I actually have noticed this in several of my flavorings. For example, I recently just restocked up on some TFA Vanilla Swirl, my older bottle is easily six months old and is clearly a golden brown in color while my brand new bottle is perfectly clear. And I really like your pointing out that the end color shouldn't be all that important, it's the flavor we're really trying to match, not the color. I wouldn't even care if my final M&H clone was Pluid green, lol.

I was hoping that ramble made sense. LOL!

Back to my dark corner of the parking garage!

 

[matrix961]

Well, that sounds incredibly promising! Your enthusiasm over it is definitely exciting! A naturally steeped test will definitely be the defining moment, so I'm happy to hear your performing that test as well.

I have every single ingredient to complete your test batch except for CAP Vanilla Custard. I have both FW Vanilla Custard and TFA Vanilla Custard and I was wondering if you had either of those to compare to your CAP Vanilla Custard?

I'm really liking your DIY Banana Cream experiment, with the Vanilla's and Bavarian Cream in it, I think those little hints and notes of flavor in the way your trying to do it could be really promising, as your now discovering.

I'm a little concerned about the high %'age of Peanut Butter in your ~12% total flavoring. To me it seems like it would be to overpowering. I would have also imagined more Cotton Candy and Marshmallow would need to be added. I do like that your going for a different twist on the Graham Cracker with the Cheesecake Graham Crust. I tried that particular flavor in one of my mixes myself, but with the other ingredients I had, I was way off. These concerns are of course completely trivial if you have indeed made an acceptable M&H clone! I'm going to wait to see if you have any advice on which Vanilla Custard I should try, before I try making this test batch myself.

Testing my speed steeped test batch #4.3 today along with the original, with fresh taste buds today, I was not as close as I had hoped, so I'm leaving the rest of that batch to steep for another week or two before testing it again.

Also @ 0mg Cosmic Fog being absolutely completely clear, it isn't, it's pretty close but it definitely has a very slight yellow tinge to it. I just ordered 3 bottles of it from ecigexpress the other day along with 3 bottles of 12mg to mix them down to 6mg with the 0mg because they don't sell or were out of 6mg.

On a complete separate topic, I also just got my Eleaf iStick 30w today and I absolutely love it! I have been using mechanical mods, which I still like but I now see that being able to tweak the wattage is definitely the better option. I also was surprised at how small and comfortable it is!

TFA Custard over the FW hands down. To me TFA & CAP have their own uniqueness with the Vanilla Custards but are very similar. On the other hand my bottle of FW vanilla custard doesn't even compare. To me the FW version has a spicy note to it and is nothing like TFA or CAP. I used CAP since I didn't have the TFA at the time and it worked well. I think TFA will work just as well and I might mix up a batch of that tonight with the TFA instead of CAP custard. I think it will be about the same tho.

I see what you are saying about the initial portions I have in the recipe for M&H. At this point for me it seems like just the right amount of peanut butter. The cotton candy I agree with but I've already increased it once so I'm going to wait and see how it goes but it could go up slightly. I'm likely going to keep the marshmallow about the same since there is something with the FW version vs the TFA version. If I use too much I get some bitterness or some type of strange funk that I can taste immediately when exhaling while vaping. I need to test that out more. Also with the cheesecake graham any higher than what I have in there now I get too much on the exhale.

If there is one thing for me it's that the peanut butter is definitely hands down the nutty note I was smelling in the original. I was amazed when I smelled it for the first time today.

Edit:
Also with the amounts I used I was constantly comparing to an original bottle in both taste and vape. In vaping it I was using and RDA on my Sigelei box and my Atlantis setup with a fresh coil. My objective was to get it just right for my senses using 2 different types of vaping equipment. This is where I can see it getting expensive especially since I will change that atlantis coil if the recipe changes dramatically. LOL, it's all fun tho.

Now with that said this is why I said I was going to take a break. I want to make sure I don't start increasing again since I noticed that even at these amounts I started to get vaping tongue. This happened once before for me and I ended up with a unicorn milk clone with 18% strawberry LOL.

 

[DrLucky]

Of all the custards I've tried (CAP Vanilla custard, FA Custard) TFA Vanilla custard is my favorite. That doesn't mean that its in M&H though.

Does anyone sense a vanilla flavor in M&H? Old recipe attempts around the web called for Vanilla custard and/or vanilla swirl.

Matrix, I had the same issue before when cloning. Vape tongue even got my real M&H not to taste like M&H anymore.