Concerns on the reports of lungs collapsing due to smoking and vaping

[AndriaD]

No I saw the quote and I agree with the premise. If you stop smoking and allow the lungs to remove some of the build up of gunk from smoking and quit adding to it, it certainly can help reverse harm from tobacco smoking. That is not the same as reversing existing damage or curing COPD. It is reducing harm no?

Yes, reducing harm, perhaps 99%. COPD is irreversible; once certain cells no longer function, they will not 'rise from the dead' even on Easter. Same for cirrhotic liver tissue.

Asthma is interesting, because the true causes of it are only marginally understood, and seem to be many-fold. There does seem to be a genetic component, but the exact reason that the particular gene or genes for it get turned on, it's not well-understood at all, but people who've never had the slightest asthmatic symptom can suddenly develop full-blown bronchial asthma in adulthood -- I did. In asthmatics, there is a HUGE variability in severity of symptoms, and in the nature of proximal causes for asthma attacks -- stress, laughter, weeping, chemical sensitivity of many different kinds, allergy, extreme cold, extreme heat and humidity, and probably a lot of others. Here at ECF amongst a fair number of asthmatic vapers, you'll find those who can't tolerate much VG at all -- I'm one of those -- and others who are exactly reverse, intolerant of much if any PG. It's the varying nature of all the different aspects of asthma that make it so interesting, and so challenging to understand.

Andria

 

[Susaz]

Big Time!

Have you seen a dog laying down? Goes round and round in circles until it finally settles. Well, that is how the scientific method works. No magic, just trial and error. Just like we are doing.

 

[Susaz]

Yes, reducing harm, perhaps 99%. COPD is irreversible; once certain cells no longer function, they will not 'rise from the dead' even on Easter. Same for cirrhotic liver tissue.

Asthma is interesting, because the true causes of it are only marginally understood, and seem to be many-fold. There does seem to be a genetic component, but the exact reason that the particular gene or genes for it get turned on, it's not well-understood at all, but people who've never had the slightest asthmatic symptom can suddenly develop full-blown bronchial asthma in adulthood -- I did. In asthmatics, there is a HUGE variability in severity of symptoms, and in the nature of proximal causes for asthma attacks -- stress, laughter, weeping, chemical sensitivity of many different kinds, allergy, extreme cold, extreme heat and humidity, and probably a lot of others. Here at ECF amongst a fair number of asthmatic vapers, you'll find those who can't tolerate much VG at all -- I'm one of those -- and others who are exactly reverse, intolerant of much if any PG. It's the varying nature of all the different aspects of asthma that make it so interesting, and so challenging to understand.

Andria

Allergies and asthma can also diminish in coming generations. My grandmother died to asthma complications, my dad's lungs were so weak he couldn't fight infection, and one day I came up with a rare, high throat cough. The allergist said "well well, your allergic asthma genes are kicking in". For two years my throat was sore all the time, I even needed an atropium puff. After the heart attack my lungs are completely clear, not so my rhinitis, that still kicks in.

 

[Oliver]

What is funny is all the talk of junk science, when statements like this are equally as false and misleading...



Quitting smoking reduces damage to lungs, not e-cig use...

Perhaps someone should write the FDA proclaiming e-cig use is a cure for COPD...

I disagree completely. I wrote that summation of Dr. Polosa's work, and having spent time with him in London recently, I stand by it.

What Polosa is getting at is that Harm Reduction is emphatically NOT what he's seeing in his patients. Instead, he's seeing the kind of improvements in lung health that do not indicate ongoing-but-lessened harm (i.e. harm reduction), but a reversal of harm.

Is this DUE to e-cigarettes? Well, are those people no longer smoking due to e-cigarettes?

This is not sophistry, and it is a completely reasonable summation of Dr. Polosa's published work.

 

[Dougiestyle]

I stubbed my toe just yesterday. Hurt like the dickens. I've been using e-cigs for over 3 years, now. I think the reason I stubbed my toe is due to vaping. I mean there's got to be a scientific correlation, right?

 

[stevegmu]

I disagree completely. I wrote that summation of Dr. Polosa's work, and having spent time with him in London recently, I stand by it.

What Polosa is getting at is that Harm Reduction is emphatically NOT what he's seeing in his patients. Instead, he's seeing the kind of improvements in lung health that do not indicate ongoing-but-lessened harm (i.e. harm reduction), but a reversal of harm.

Is this DUE to e-cigarettes? Well, are those people no longer smoking due to e-cigarettes?

This is not sophistry, and it is a completely reasonable summation of Dr. Polosa's published work.

Perhaps this is why so few outside the vape world take such articles seriously. Their lung function improved because they quit smoking. The way the article was written suggests it was e-cig use which was the cause for lung improvement. Had the patients quit cold turkey, lung function would have improved...

 

[stevegmu]

I stubbed my toe just yesterday. Hurt like the dickens. I've been using e-cigs for over 3 years, now. I think the reason I stubbed my toe is due to vaping. I mean there's got to be a scientific correlation, right?

No, if your toe felt better after several hours and you vaped, it was vaping which made your toe feel better, not time...

 

[Jimi D.]

Diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione exposures associated with cigarette smoking: implications for risk assessment of food and flavoring workers. - PubMed - NCBI

Quite interesting.

 

[AndriaD]

Allergies and asthma can also diminish in coming generations. My grandmother died to asthma complications, my dad's lungs were so weak he couldn't fight infection, and one day I came up with a rare, high throat cough. The allergist said "well well, your allergic asthma genes are kicking in". For two years my throat was sore all the time, I even needed an atropium puff. After the heart attack my lungs are completely clear, not so my rhinitis, that still kicks in.

Hmmm... asthma does cause coughing, but it's not a throat cough at all, it's a deep bronchial cough; throat coughs tend to be sharp and "whistly" and that's usually an indication that an asthmatic needs the rescue inhaler, to open the bronchioles enough for the cough to be productive rather than sharp and whistly. Allergy and asthma aren't the same thing at all; allergic symptoms can bring on an asthma attack, because of both extra congestion and for other reasons not well understood, but histamines aren't usually one of the major causes of asthma attacks; in fact, some antihistamines can depress the breathing center in the brain so much, they can make asthma worse -- which is why most antihistamines have some caution on the pkg about consulting a physician before using it, if you have asthma.

Andria

 

[Susaz]

Hmmm... asthma does cause coughing, but it's not a throat cough at all, it's a deep bronchial cough; throat coughs tend to be sharp and "whistly" and that's usually an indication that an asthmatic needs the rescue inhaler, to open the bronchioles enough for the cough to be productive rather than sharp and whistly. Allergy and asthma aren't the same thing at all; allergic symptoms can bring on an asthma attack, because of both extra congestion and for other reasons not well understood, but histamines aren't usually one of the major causes of asthma attacks; in fact, some antihistamines can depress the breathing center in the brain so much, they can make asthma worse -- which is why most antihistamines have some caution on the pkg about consulting a physician before using it, if you have asthma.

Andria

In reality I'm more allergic than asthmatic. Still, when you think you have a cold coming in, if it's feverless, 9 out of 10 it's a full fledged allergic reaction. I haven't had those deep coughs in more than a decade, and they used to last more than 20 days, shortness of breath and the like. But still the neumonologist predicts that some day I could have shortness of breath, indicating an asthma attack.

 

[AndriaD]

In reality I'm more allergic than asthmatic. Still, when you think you have a cold coming in, if it's feverless, 9 out of 10 it's a full fledged allergic reaction. I haven't had those deep coughs in more than a decade, and they used to last more than 20 days, shortness of breath and the like. But still the neumonologist predicts that some day I could have shortness of breath, indicating an asthma attack.

Yeah, it does sound like the potential is there. Although I didn't develop asthma until I was 24, from the time I started smoking, I could *never* smoke while lying down, because I couldn't blow it out sufficiently -- now, as an asthmatic, it's hard for me to even breathe while lying flat on my back. That tells me that the tendency to asthma was always there, but it required some drastic proximal cause to really "turn it on" -- considering I was diagnosed within a year of moving from Atlanta, GA, to Detroit, MI, I'm pretty sure it's simply the huge increase in industrial air pollution -- there's a hallacious lot of pollen here in Atlanta, but not a lot of heavy industry, as there used to be in Detroit. I was living in Downriver Detroit, not at all distant from the old US Steel plant, plus the enormous amount of diesel exhaust from all the river traffic -- AND, I lived right down the street from a factory that produced pesticide and glue.

When we moved back to metro Atlanta in '90, my asthma improved immediately, but now that the gene for it is active, it'll never disappear -- it got much better again when I quit drinking in '92, when I started smoking outdoors in '97 and immediately decreased my smoking by 33% (2pks a day instead of 3!), and right at first when I stopped smoking and started vaping -- unfortunately it later worsened, and I had to go on maintenance meds for my asthma instead of just a rescue inhaler. It's not definitive by any means, but it did seem to worsen not too long after I started using WTA, so possibly as I gradually wean from that, the asthma will improve again. It's definitely nice to not have to cough up crud continually, or wake up sounding like a water pipe and grabbing for the inhaler before my eyes are even open -- now I have the luxury of being able to actually get up and get my robe on, before I even think of the inhaler.

Andria

 

[KattMamma]

Diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione exposures associated with cigarette smoking: implications for risk assessment of food and flavoring workers. - PubMed - NCBI

Quite interesting.

That IS interesting - this part makes me feel better about the custard flavors I love so much...

We found that diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione exposures from cigarette smoking far exceed occupational exposures for most food/flavoring workers who smoke. This suggests that previous claims of a significant exposure-response relationship between diacetyl inhalation and respiratory disease in food/flavoring workers were confounded, because none of the investigations considered or quantified the non-occupational diacetyl exposure from cigarette smoke, yet all of the cohorts evaluated had considerable smoking histories.

 

[Jimi D.]

That IS interesting - this part makes me feel better about the custard flavors I love so much...

It also makes me wonder if the combination of smoking and inhaling diacetyl from flavorings is what caused the disease. A double whammy so to speak. Hmmmm...

 

[Oliver]

Perhaps this is why so few outside the vape world take such articles seriously. Their lung function improved because they quit smoking. The way the article was written suggests it was e-cig use which was the cause for lung improvement. Had the patients quit cold turkey, lung function would have improved...

I mean, obviously!

But the fact is Dr. Polosa has compelling evidence that smokers who move to e-cigs are not engaging in harm reduction (in which they'd see their symptoms stabilise or progress more slowly), but are seeing a reversal in their symptoms. Yes this in exactly the same way as had they quit smoking cold turkey. And that's the point!

They weren't not-smoking before starting vaping! It's a slightly harder thing to assess whether they would have stopped in the long run without access to vaping products.

 

[Oliver]

Another way to phrase it might be:

"Through the use of e-cigarettes as a substitution for smoked tobacco, the lungs' natural regenerative processes are sufficiently unburdened so as to reverse harms previously caused by smoke."

Again, not sophistry. A completely fair (and in a non-mad world, uncontroversial) reading of Polosa's research.

And this would stand in contrast to another (hypothetical) Reduced Harm product of which it might be said:

"Through the use of MagiSmoke as a substitution for smoked tobacco, disease markers were seen to stabilise. Few improvements in gross function were seen during the study".

In both examples, the phrase: "smokers are advised that the best route to health is through the complete abstinence from tobacco or nicotine products. But for smokers who can not, or will not, quit the above strategy is likely to be beneficial." would have to be included.