Dem Bones Dem Bones,

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xtwosm0kesx

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And here i was all excited that this thread was about candy:

PR_60639.jpg


lol :vapor:
 

2coils

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I saw this peice posted on Facebook. Was well written. I don't want to be the one who starts the whole dem vs rep thing, but its kind of hard not to, due to the text and message of the article:D
I do agree with AA, anyone who isn't for harm reduction especially with the potential of ecigs, should be called out.
 

Kent C

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Here's the actual statement: " ...the most troubling thing is it's being perpetrated mostly by Democrats, against their own philosophies, goals, and political interests." So it isn't All democrats and No other parties, just mostly Democrats, and that is right. What isn't right about that quote is that banning stuff isn't really "against their own philosophies" - see the science on second hand smoke for just one example but there are numerous bans and regulations that would be similar to what they want to do with ecigs, that is their default position or Standard Operating Procedure. And it isn't so much against the party's goals for that matter. It may very well be against their political interests.

The other implied suggestion - that they are against big pharma is another problem. Certain people on the Left may be against big pharma, but many of the politicians that get money from them are Dems. Same with (now) most of Wall Street - mainly the 'hated' Hedge Funds and their managers - most are Democrat contributors - some of them big time. The 'business base' for Republicans (which some think it ALL business) are mainly small business owners - the bourgeoisie as it was originally defined as the wealthier part of the 'middle class', not the aristocracy which has historically been more left leaning, and includes mostly the top leaders of the 'big (anything)' - gov't, pharma, energy, finance, and internet/computer biggies - GE, MS, Apple, google, yahoo, facebook, amazon, etc. "mostly" being the significant modifier as in the above.
 
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In the interests of full disclosure, let me say that I'm a lifetime Kos member. I don't spend much time on the site, but I've done a lot of political work in the past, and used to be a minor Dem party officer (very minor). Since I live in IN, I'm familiar with the views of conservative Dems (the only kind who get elected to statewide office here), as well as my fellow liberals. I also know a lot of Repubs, both of what I might refer to as the Statist and Libertarian variety. (Tea partiers are not nec'ly Libertarians, BTW.)

And one other thing: of the four states with the harshest anti-vaping laws, two are dark red: UT & ND. Add AR which is fairly red (despite a vanishing number of conservative Dems), and you get the picture. NJ is obviously bright blue, and MN is mostly-blue (I mention MN only because of its taxes, but there's a fight coming there on the clean air act - as I reported today).

There are plenty of statist GOP politicians who support tough anti-vaping statutes outside of those states. Usually the statist Repubs favor them because they see smoking is immoral and generally tend to favor gov't intervention when they view an issue as one of morality. They also warm up when you bring in children. (For ex., the push to regulate internet porn for ex. was substantially fueled by statist Repubs.) Many of these Repubs will also reflexively oppose anything that they think Dems favor. These folks represent what you might call the "establishment" GOP. (They also tend to be neo-cons who never ran into a war or a defense appropriation that they didn't like.)

On the other side, you have conservative Dems who also tend to have a moralist streak (which is why people like my own Sen. Donnelly are staunchly pro-life). Some liberal Dems also have a Libertarian streak,which explains the support for laws concerning THAT_OTHER_STUFF. Those same folks tend to be anti-big-business - so to reach them, the ANTZ have done a good job of smearing vapers with BT "cooties" (not a strong enough word, but you get the idea).

It's clear that there's no pro-vaping built-in constituency right now w/i the Dem party. This probably explains why some national Dems are so relentlessly aggressive. It's equally clear that there's a built-in pro-vaping Libertarian constituency w/i the GOP (who favor vaping in part because Libs don't like gov't restrictions, period), and they're assisted by a certain number of statist Repubs who will be pro-vaping only because they think Dems are against it.

On the other hand, as this complex multi-jurisdictional game plays out at various levels of gov't, I think you'll see more and more dark-red state and local governments passing onerous restrictions. The fact is that the ANTZ have gotten to them, too - by (1) tying vapers to already-demonized-and-by-hypothesis-immoral smokers; and (2) by fear-mongering tactics involving minors. You'll see this especially in small rural towns and counties, which tend to be populated principally by pious Puritannical statist Repubs. (This probably explains the situations in ND and UT, for ex.). For every Richmond or Solana Beach CA, I'll give you a Williamson TX or a Manketo MN (yes, MN is a bluish state, but not out in the sticks). Frankly, I wouldn't be at all be surprised if states like KY, OK, TX, TN, AL, LA, KS, NE, SD, and MO follow ND's lead (althogh for the nonce, AL seems to be curiously not under threat - quite the opposite).

Even worse, you may see liberal Dems and statist Repubs form a "strange bedfellows" alliance in purple states like IA, WI, FL, CO, and OH (currently not under threat this year) and even tobacco-growing states like VA and NC. What will happen in dark red states with lots of libertarians *and* Bible-thumping statist Repubs like WY, MT, ID and AK? Your guess is as good as mine. ME is also going to be a fascinating state to watch.

The situation is going to look a whole lot different after this legislative session, and will become even more complex if the FDA doesn't act this year.

The only thing that I think I can say w/ confidence is that simplistic "red vs blue" generalizations just aren't going to cut it, in terms of accurately describing the landscape. Nat'l Dems and blue states may be getting all the limelight, but this is more a matter of reputation than reality.
 

2coils

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In the interests of full disclosure, let me say that I'm a lifetime Kos member. I don't spend much time on the site, but I've done a lot of political work in the past, and used to be a minor Dem party officer (very minor). Since I live in IN, I'm familiar with the views of conservative Dems (the only kind who get elected to statewide office here), as well as my fellow liberals. I also know a lot of Repubs, both of what I might refer to as the Statist and Libertarian variety. (Tea partiers are not nec'ly Libertarians, BTW.)

And one other thing: of the four states with the harshest anti-vaping laws, two are dark red: UT & ND. Add AR which is fairly red (despite a vanishing number of conservative Dems), and you get the picture. NJ is obviously bright blue, and MN is mostly-blue (I mention MN only because of its taxes, but there's a fight coming there on the clean air act - as I reported today).

There are plenty of statist GOP politicians who support tough anti-vaping statutes outside of those states. Usually the statist Repubs favor them because they see smoking is immoral and generally tend to favor gov't intervention when they view an issue as one of morality. They also warm up when you bring in children. (For ex., the push to regulate internet porn for ex. was substantially fueled by statist Repubs.) Many of these Repubs will also reflexively oppose anything that they think Dems favor. These folks represent what you might call the "establishment" GOP. (They also tend to be neo-cons who never ran into a war or a defense appropriation that they didn't like.)

On the other side, you have conservative Dems who also tend to have a moralist streak (which is why people like my own Sen. Donnelly are staunchly pro-life). Some liberal Dems also have a Libertarian streak,which explains the support for laws concerning THAT_OTHER_STUFF. Those same folks tend to be anti-big-business - so to reach them, the ANTZ have done a good job of smearing vapers with BT "cooties" (not a strong enough word, but you get the idea).

It's clear that there's no pro-vaping built-in constituency right now w/i the Dem party. This probably explains why some national Dems are so relentlessly aggressive. It's equally clear that there's a built-in pro-vaping Libertarian constituency w/i the GOP (who favor vaping in part because Libs don't like gov't restrictions, period), and they're assisted by a certain number of statist Repubs who will be pro-vaping only because they think Dems are against it.

On the other hand, as this complex multi-jurisdictional game plays out at various levels of gov't, I think you'll see more and more dark-red state and local governments passing onerous restrictions. The fact is that the ANTZ have gotten to them, too - by (1) tying vapers to already-demonized-and-by-hypothesis-immoral smokers; and (2) by fear-mongering tactics involving minors. You'll see this especially in small rural towns and counties, which tend to be populated principally by pious Puritannical statist Repubs. (This probably explains the situations in ND and UT, for ex.). For every Richmond or Solana Beach CA, I'll give you a Williamson TX or a Manketo MN (yes, MN is a bluish state, but not out in the sticks). Frankly, I wouldn't be at all be surprised if states like KY, OK, TX, TN, AL, LA, KS, NE, SD, and MO follow ND's lead (althogh for the nonce, AL seems to be curiously not under threat - quite the opposite).

Even worse, you may see liberal Dems and statist Repubs form a "strange bedfellows" alliance in purple states like IA, WI, FL, CO, and OH (currently not under threat this year) and even tobacco-growing states like VA and NC. What will happen in dark red states with lots of libertarians *and* Bible-thumping statist Repubs like WY, MT, ID and AK? Your guess is as good as mine. ME is also going to be a fascinating state to watch.

The situation is going to look a whole lot different after this legislative session, and will become even more complex if the FDA doesn't act this year.

The only thing that I think I can say w/ confidence is that simplistic "red vs blue" generalizations just aren't going to cut it, in terms of accurately describing the landscape. Nat'l Dems and blue states may be getting all the limelight, but this is more a matter of reputation than reality.
Well after reading that my eyes hurt lol! Though, I get your point.
 

Jman8

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I would note that in my state, WI Pubs and Dems are pushing a bill to clarify that the use of electronic cigarettes is NOT banned under Wisconsin's Clean Indoor Air Act.

I'm proud of this proactive piece of legislation, and happy it is coming at this time, when other states are going in the opposite direction. I also sincerely hope it works as a flagship piece of legislation for all states, the entire country, and ideally, the entire planet.
 

Sundodger

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I would note that in my state, WI Pubs and Dems are pushing a bill to clarify that the use of electronic cigarettes is NOT banned under Wisconsin's Clean Indoor Air Act.

I'm proud of this proactive piece of legislation, and happy it is coming at this time, when other states are going in the opposite direction. I also sincerely hope it works as a flagship piece of legislation for all states, the entire country, and ideally, the entire planet.

Unfortunately we also have Pubs and Dems trying to pass the backpack legislation at the same time. Strange bedfellows all around, I think right now we are in better shape than most states, but I don't trust any of them so I will be keeping both eyes on them.

Heck, I don't even trust myself, I have to hold a gun to my head when I shave, so that I don't cut my own throat. :ohmy:
 

Kent C

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Unfortunately we also have Pubs and Dems trying to pass the backpack legislation at the same time. Strange bedfellows all around, I think right now we are in better shape than most states, but I don't trust any of them so I will be keeping both eyes on them.

Heck, I don't even trust myself, I have to hold a gun to my head when I shave, so that I don't cut my own throat. :ohmy:

lol...

From an NPR story earlier, A Republican sponsored a bill in Ohio to make ecigs off limits to kids under 18.....(from the misleading story about more kids using ecigs) :facepalm:


"But more than two dozen Democrats in the House voted against the bill, saying it didn’t go far enough.

Rep. Nickie Antonio (D) of the Cleveland suburb of Lakewood wanted e-cigarettes to be labeled, regulated and taxed just like regular cigarettes are."

and...

“There is no conclusive evidence that they can be categorized as a smoking cessation aid. The other thing is, they’re also, because of this special category, are falling outside of the Indoor Clean Air Act.” OMG!! :facepalm:

E-Cig Ban For Minors Clears Legislature Despite Objections | WOSU News - WOSU Public Media
 
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