DIY Newbie Steeping Question(s)........

[Von Vape]

I hope NOT to be redundant. Please bear with me if I am.

Are there "rules of thumb" for how long to steep DIY juices?
(I realize that depends on the method. [U.C. w/ & w/o heat, cool dark place shaking daily, therapeutic foot bath w/water or sand & w/ or w/o heat} and the method I used on my first full (30 ml. batches) boxed, over a forced air heating vent, shaken regularly for 24 hrs.)

Do certain flavors/flavor combinations require longer steep periods than others?
(I noticed my chocolate/caramel flavor didn't seem nearly as "matured" as the other two, which were quite tasty within 24 hrs. (20% total flavoring ratio) I've also picked up on tobacco flavors requiring a MUCH LONGER steep time than other flavors. However, that's not an issue for me since I took up vaping to get off of tobacco and have left that flavor behind.)

When is a DIY juice "done" steeping?
(From what I've read here, this is subjective since juices, both commercial and DIY seem to continue to, if not build character and flavor over time (like a fine wine) at least not loose flavor & character or "go bad" (if they weren't already, lol) once they've "reached their peak". Still, I'd like your (experienced DIYers) opinions.)

Should I run off a separate batch to set aside to steep even longer, once I've "perfected" my recipe?
(I have a feeling this one's a "no brainer" and is subjective as well. The only problem with this is, I go through it pretty darned fast once it's "Vapeable" LOL!)

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, just reduce the grade of the learning curve it has to travel. I know the simple answer is , "If you're happy with what you're vaping, it's done." I'm looking for a little more definitive answer to all of the above. I want to produce the finest juice possible and I think others do to. I feel that if you want to do something to the best of your ability, learn from the people who are best at it. On the other hand, this may be like walking into Sam Adams Brewery and asking, "How's that beer made?". I hope that's not the case. Thanks in advance for your expert advice!

CHEERS!
Von Vape

 

[sparkky1]

unless it's a custard or cream, your test through your rda after just a vigorous shake should yield a decent taste, if not 3 weeks wont morph into the finest juice possible .............
unless your in your first couple months of quitting the stinks or your purchasing weak flavors, 20% total flavoring is alot, especially coming from the flavor of tar and ashtray .................
VG on it's own is sweet, but buy quality flavorings and nicotine and don't get so caught up in the idea that your "eating" your vape .................

 

[man00ver]

I'd say you've done good research, and my opinion will confirm pretty much everything you've stated.

My rule of thumb is to steep for a week, and keep tasting after that (or it used to be, see below).
Complex mixes, especially those containing custards and tobaccos, can double the steep times easily.
After a month, pretty much all flavoring components should have peaked, and you're "done," although they may continue to mature. They may decline somewhat over extended periods.
If you're blowing through your small batches of "perfected" liquid before they're a month old, you might want to make an incrementally bigger batch to see if it becomes pluperfected with more steep time.

I'm vaping fresh mixes since acquiring this nifty tool:
Stirrer, Mixer, Hand-Held | Hach USA - Overview | Hach

I buzz my freshly-mixed bottle for 30 seconds, and it goes solidly milky with microbubbles. I put it in a warm bath with the neck open for about 20-30 minutes until it clears a bit. Chocolate, custard, tobacco (even recipes with a touch of tobacco absolute) all seem to fall right into line and are instantly vapable. No further shaking required. In a day or two they seem fully built, and in a week, they're absolutely "done." For the price of a Premium pre-mixed 30mL, it's a wonder wand indeed.

 

[SteveS45]

Kit ordered yesterday from Liquid Barn and it comes with an Electric Mixer so I am wondering with my first batch which will be Tobacco Flavored what other recommend for steeping time or will it be a Mix and Vape? Thanks in advance!

 

[Alter]

Using that electric mixer I would build my mix without the nic, then you can beat the pizz out of it. Let it sit overnight to subside the bubbles, you can beat it again and again if you like. Add your nic after the mix has settled and no bubbles then shake and begin steep period. I have enough onhand so building a tobac and letting steep 3+ weeks is no biggie. Some say 2 weeks but I believe a month to properly blossom tobacco juices and TA's.
I start at 5% on all new flavors then go from there to how sweet they become. I take a minute drop of the concentrate on the back of the hand and taste to see if I like the taste before making some. That small concentrate taste pretty well sums up what the finish is going to be and how you can use that flavor. Every week take a drop taste from the batch to see if flavors coming out or getting sweet. You'll just know after a while what its suppose to taste like. I also blend all my tobacs and TA's as standalones then blend together in smaller 50ml batches, vape that away then blend different ratios to always have the same yet different juice.
If your going to vape tobacs then look into tobacco absolutes, they add nothing but goodness to tobacco flavors.

 

[SteveS45]

Thanks for that info! Why do you say mix it before adding the Nicotine? I ordered my Nic in VG because I will be aiming for 70/30 or 80/20 depending on the consistency of the finished product. I will be trying to reproduce the Buck Naked American and Turkish Tobacco to a certain extent but these will be my own recipes in the end. Since this is my first forte into DIY'ing perfecting the process will come with practice but I am trying to get the most information to not go in blind as they say.

 

[Von Vape]

sparkky1 - Thanks so much for your response! Yes. We are "just off the "stinks" ) GREAT handle for them BYW) Even at that, I was pretty happy with the overall flavor @ 15% total on the test (5ml.) run. I got greedy and bumped it and IT IS fairly "flavor heavy", even for us. We're using "clearos" (Kanger Subvods) in an effort to keep it dirt simple (baby steps). I/we may branch out into wicking and dripping eventually but I'm sure that's down the road. For flavors, we're using TFA to start but I'll definitely be checking the "Best of the Best" list (and dropping back to 15% total flavor profile)!!! Thanks again for your sage advice!!

manOOver - Thanks so much for your response! That mixer looks like a pretty "KOOL TOOL"! Great note on custards too. My wife likes the banana flavors and I was considering a custard/pudding/cream type thing for her. Do the puddings and, say, Bavarian Creams fall into the same "longer is better" category? I read up on the chocolate flavors a bit yesterday and noticed it's tough to "recreate" it and there aren't really many GREAT ones out there. We're using TFA (as noted above) and my opinion on that one is it's more of a raw cocoa flavor (at least for the first week) than a chocolate. After that, it "comes around" a bit. Their Caramel seems more like Butterscotch to me as well but there again, I'll be checking "The List". Thanks again for your response and guiding me to the mixer! As Alton Brown says, "I don't like having a "unitasker" taking up space.", so we'll probably be using it on our chocolate milk, hot cocoa and maybe even cocktails too! LOL!!!

AlterUrEgo - Thanks so much for your response! I'm curious as well as to why you don't add the nicotine until the end. (Great question SteveS45!) As I mentioned, I'm leaving tobacco flavors behind but, judging from the responses, chocolates, custards and maybe even caramels take longer to "mature" so the same "longer is better" principal seems to apply. Like SteveS45, I also got my nicotine in 100%VG, although maybe not for quite the same reason. I "assumed" that since VG is LESS of a flavor carrier, it would be better to use it for the nicotine since we're actually trying to REDUCE the T.H. (throat hit). (I know, vaping is SUPPOSED to have a TH, right!!!) LIS, we're vaping to get off of "The Stinks" and everything related to them (except the tactile "habit"). Regardless, your advise DOES apply and has been very helpful as well!!! Still curious about the nicotine at the end though. Thanks again AlterUrEgo!!!

SteveS45 - You can tag along in my threads ANYTIME!!! We're all here to learn, grow and get support. I think it's GREAT we can all do it together! The question you posed about "At the end of the process" is one I may have "glossed over" so we ALL learn something from a different perspective.
One of the things I've learned is that your final PG/VG ratio is determined by your TOTAL BATCH RATIO(S) (Whatever nic. base, 100% PG or VG, 50% PG/VG and the "balancing" amount of PG & VG to come to your final PG/VG ratio.)
My nic base is 100mg. per ml. nic. (10%) in 100% VG also (see above, don't know yet if that reasons out but...) I'm shooting for a 50%/50% PG/VG @ 9% nic. level and for a 30ml. batch. That works out to 2.7 ml. nic., 9 ml. PG and 12.3 ml. VG (considering your flavor/flavors are all PG/alcohol based and make up 20% of the total amount.) In simpler terms you'll use more of either PG or VG to achieve the ratio you desire, regardless of your flavor(s) or nicotine's base.

As you said, "perfecting the process will come with practice." All I know is, IT'S A HECK OF A LOT OF FUN! Just remember, nicotine should be given the respect it deserves and handled properly, but other than that it's "Better living through chemistry!" (As we used to say, back in the day! )

This thread's not dead! As Steves45 said, "Trying to get the most information to no(t) go in blind."

Thanks AGAIN To ALL!!!
Von Vape

 

[SteveS45]

Von Vape use the calculators that many have posted because that accounts fo the VG or PG in your Nicotine. Also I heard recently and I do not know how accurate this info is but the creams are the ones to watch out for with the Diacetyl. The flavors I recently purchased all have FDS Pdf's or Flavor Data Sheets which is something I make sure is not contained in any of the products I purchase.

 

[Alter]

I add the nic at the end so I don't oxidize the nic causing the mix to go dark before its time and/or taste bitter. Once the nic is added you want to incorporate the least amount of oxygen as possible so just shaking instead of whisking would be the form. I softly drop a stirbar and spin the mix slowly with my mixer. It may take weeks for flavors to blossom but only a few days to a week to incorporate nic into a mix. I use to let my mixes steep without nic for a few weeks before adding nic then from dannyv45 stating that nic is a vital component in the steep process so I add the nic in the end before my mix gets shelved to steep. All my Hangsen tobacs end up being a nice golden color
I use a 50/50 48nic since thats what I started out with and got use to using it. I vape 60vg/40pg and my wife vapes 50/50 so it works out nice in my mixing. All I can say about nic is that you give it the respect it needs while working with it and you will have no problems.

 

[SteveS45]

Thanks for that tip I will do some more research into adding the nicotine for sure. Not concerned with handling the nicotine safely since I have handled hazardous or dangerous chemicals for many years. Not saying nicotine falls into that category but it is to be handled PROPERLY.

 

[Von Vape]

SteveS45 - thanks and yes I do use a calculator that accounts for the nic. VG/PG. That's kind of what I was getting at (not to be snippy in any way. It's ALL GOOD Brother!!!) The Diacetyl question is another good one and point as well. Does anybody have FACTUAL info on this??? And yes, that's what I was getting at in regard to the nicotine handling as well, it should be given the respect it deserves and handled properly. (rephrasing OP now. )

AlterUrEgo - I also thank you for all of your help! I'm gonna go back and read Dannyv45's blog again for the fifth or sixth time and practice, practice, practice!

BTW, to anyone: Does my theory of the nicotine being in 100% VG base, "toning down the throat hit", hold any water???

Cheers!
Von Vape

 

[SteveS45]

All I know is as FACT is Liquid Barn Flavors has no Diacetyl in any of their e-Liquids. They say it is a Diacetyl Free Laboratory. That can be confirmed on their site.

 

[Von Vape]

All I know is as FACT is Liquid Barn Flavors has no Diacetyl in any of their e-Liquids. They say it is a Diacetyl Free Laboratory. That can be confirmed on their site.

That's all well and good. What I was wondering is what are the facts and/or concerns with Diacetyl ? It seems like I've read and heard "something" about there being concerns with this but it wasn't clear what those concerns were. It doesn't "sound" good but I'm a "dig deeper" kind of guy too Steve. Rumors and erroneous information is how demonizing something starts. I'm just doing my due diligence too!

Cheers!
Von Vape

 

[SteveS45]

Von from what I have heard and read concerning Diacetyl all I know and care about is there is none in my e-Liquids or flavors.

A family member right now is scheduled for surgery on a lung in the morning due to his years of smoking and exposure to other chemicals and substances in the workplace.

 

[Von Vape]

And what I'm getting at is what IS what you've heard and read about it. I agree 1,000%, the less chemicals & schtuff in ANY product is better. I'm also sincerely sorry for your family member's situation.

I just thought someone might be able to enlighten me on this substance, graciously but that's okay, I'll just Google it myself. Thanks for all your "help"!

Von Vape

 

[SteveS45]

I wish I could help but as soon as I ran across the Popcorn Lung articles I dug into the depths of the internet and what I read had me avoiding Diacetyl like it was the plague. I did not save any of the links as most was concerning the chemical and not vaping liquids. I wish I could help but Google is your friend!

Let me google that for you

 

[sparkky1]

And what I'm getting at is what IS what you've heard and read about it. I agree 1,000%, the less chemicals & schtuff in ANY product is better. I'm also sincerely sorry for your family member's situation.

I just thought someone might be able to enlighten me on this substance, graciously but that's okay, I'll just Google it myself. Thanks for all your "help"!

Von Vape

That was kind of my point in watching your total flavor amounts, ALL artificial & natural flavoring has known lung irritants in them, so the safer alternative would be to lower your total, if their simple two flavor recipes, the total of 10 % should suffice BUT .......... you still need to be able to test vape after a mix, someone's awesome internet recipe might be way off to your liking because of the %'s and brands they use.
How are you ever going to know if it needs more of this or that or that's way tooo much of this ?
I would start @ the manufactures recommended % to start and work your way up ................

 

[Von Vape]

Steve, Thanks for explaining your position. I get it.

Sparkky1 - Thank You! I sincerely appreciate your advise and will definitely implement it in my next batches. I'm working with two "two flavor" and one "four flavor" recipes of my own concoction. The manufacture's recommendation is 5% to start. Am I trying to stay at or below 10% total flavor, even for the 4 flavor recipe?

Thanks Again!
Von Vape

 

[SteveS45]

The manufacture's recommendation is 5% to start. Am I trying to stay at or below 10% total flavor, even for the 4 flavor recipe?

Von Vape

That is why I have the question about %'s because for the 2 tobaccos I bought there are no manufactures recommendations! Trial and error I guess but trying to avoid making a mistake I can't recover from the easiest possible way.

 

[JCinFLA]

@Von Vape - Most eliquid manufacturers have not used diacetyl in their juices for quite awhile now. If you're DIY eliquids now, your flavorings supplier should have information on their website about their flavorings and diacetyl. One of the reasons I buy all my flavoring concentrates (mostly TFA) from Wizard Labs, is because they have this statement on their website:

"All Wizard Labs flavor concentrates are undiluted, full strength concentrates from the manufacturer, and contain no Diacetyl."

A few other reasons are because they're an FDA registered facility; they're only about 50 miles from me, so I receive shipments rather quickly; and because every package I've received from them has been expertly prepared for shipment. These people know how to properly send glass vials & bottles of flavorings to ensure their safe arrival better than any company I've ever purchased anything liquid from in the past.

So, because of the above, I don't worry about diacetyl in any TFA flavorings I buy from them. I imagine they're not the only vendor of flavorings who may have similar statements on their websites as well.

What some people do like to check/watch for though, in the flavorings they buy for DIY eliquids...are what's called the "diketones" (Acetoin & Acetylpropionyl) which provide the "custard notes" in flavorings. Many websites will plainly show in the ingredients listing for each of their flavorings, if they contain either one or both of those chemicals. Many will have a regular version with them, but also a "diketone free" version (ie. a regular Sweet Cream, as well as a DX Sweet Cream which is the diketone-free version). So, you can find plenty of flavorings that are diketone-free to make recipes that may call for a flavoring that normally has one or the other of those checmicals.

The only other thing I'm personally careful to look for in flavorings I buy...is ethyl alcohol. It gives me a bad headache if I don't take several days to evaporate it off before I vape the mix that contains it. Otherwise, I just look for an alcohol-free version of the same flavoring and use it instead in my mix.

I'm sorry that was so long. I wanted to provide as much help as I thought might be useful, and do it in pretty specific detail.